We respect other people’s faith. If they crucify themselves as a way
to remove their sins. Then, let them do it.
Your food maybe poison of other people.
We dont even know the real definition of Sins, except as evil deeds
according to the Holy Books. What are the consequences, except eternal Hell according to religious teachers. Nobody has yet returned from the Dead at present, to say and give evidence there is Hell. Explain in full view on the CNN about life after death.
There is a whole Universe to look to. Our Planet Earth is just one
speck in this vast Galaxy. Our Galaxy is just one of the billions of
Galaxies in the Universe. We have to progress our mind sets.
MANILA, Philippines – Senator Panfilo “Ping” Lacson urged President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo to “realize your faults and repent with all your heart” on Lent.
“My Lenten message for Gloria Arroyo is simple but sincere,” Lacson said in a statement on Wednesday. “May the true meaning of Lent finally fill her heart, mind and soul.”
“May she realize her faults. May she repent with all her heart, so that
the Filipino people may live better lives,” he said.
The senator also asked the Filipino people not to lose hope and instead to pray for wisdom in choosing their leaders, courage to overcome the hardships, and unity to bring change to the country
“Lent is the time when Christians remember how Christ suffered and died for our sins so that we may live fully. It is also the time when we are called to reflect on our lives; in the hope that we may realize our faults, repent with all our hearts, and try to live better lives,
as we anticipate the glory of Easter,” he said.
DJB’s point in giving this particular post entry a title “Damaso Lives!” is all about the Roman Catholic Church’s deeply rooted influence and effect of indoctrination (as what atheism called the “delusion” on the concept of God) to its “faithful believers”. This influence and effect is what the spirit of Padre Damaso represents.
In some of Dr. Jose Rizal’s writings, Padre Damaso is the embodiment of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church under Spanish rule which indoctrinates and enslaves the Filipinos ancestors during the time of occupation of the Spaniards in our land.
It is interesting to note that such Lenten practice can be observed mostly in countries that once were colonized by Spain. In the Philippines, it has even become a yearly tourist attraction. Some of the higher Roman Catholic Church (RCC) authorities do not agree with this Lenten practice because it is already veering from the original traditions and teachings of the RCC.
This Lenten practice seems to portray Padre Damaso still flagellating its Filipino slaves every good Friday even if the Spanish occupation had long been over.
Indeed, that tyrannical fat-bellied friar still lives among the Filipino psyche and still whips our national spirit every once in a while.
Adventurero (or to whoever has an opinion on this question): They don’t explain it very well. Why do the Catholic or Baptist churches say this: Children to be born next year or in 2015 are already considered sinners.
It is all Eve’s fault, the Catholic Church teaches. Through her, “original sin” is said to be present in the souls that are issued to make human beings ever since the race was cast out of Eden. Thus, we are GUILTY and bound for Hell, even before we are born. But during the period of testing that is called Life, we can be made worthy of the promises of Christ of eternal paradise or eternal torture depending upon a Final Judgment that will be made at some far and future date uncertain.
The Saying you ask about is an advertisement for faithful parents to enroll their offspring for Brain Washing, err, Sin-Absolving Salvation classes. As early and as defenseless as possible, if you please Mr. and Mrs.
I saw those “rituals” on Ripley’s Believe It Or Not. Find it very extreme and disturbing. When I was still living in the Philippines, my dad rescued a kitten from a bunch of messed-up street kids who crucified the poor creature. Luckily, it was still alive. What does this have to do with DJB’s post? Nothing. It’s just that everytime I see live crucixions like that, I remember the kitten. At least (I assume), the devotees in those pictures volunteer themselves to be crucified.
There ought to be some kind of religious magic or miracle that the inflicted wounds of those who volunteered themselves to be nailed on the cross heal without a scar.
And despite the health secretary’s rather uncharacteristic medical advise, they chose not to take in any drug or medicine or that would have run counter to their religious belief, doesn’t it?
atheists of the world, whatever you do, please don’t ridicule and disrespect those who believe. leave them alone in the free exercise of their religion. the right not to believe doesn’t include a license to deride a lawful display of one’s faith.
Happy easter, Manoy. Although I am a believer like you, I have a much more liberal interpretation of free speech in that it includes the license to deride lawful displays of faith. So far none of the atheists who wash up on these here parts have advocated using the power of the State to squelch religiosity in public so that’s ok. We have mouths and pens and keyboards as well so it’s a fair fight.
Thank you Jeg. BTW, I doubt you would want to defend these particular crucifixees that I had the privilege of photographing and interviewing. You see they are actually Muncipal Employees and the scientific appreciation of the “props” and articles of their trade might make even Bencard wonder if some kind of prosecution for FRAUD ought not be mounted against some of these hypocritical scoundrels.
It seems some people think some approximation of a real crucifixion is taking place or that superhuman pain is being endured in holy penitence.
The truth could hurt the pious and piously tolerant of this spectacular example of Modern Hypocriscy left over from the era of the Spanish Taliban!
you’re right, jeg. but have you heard of “political correctness”? i guess there is no constitutional prohibition in calling a negro, “nigger”, a homosexual, “faggot”, a pakistani, “raghead”, etc., etc. but we observe political correctness in the name of peace and civility, if not to avoid physical violence, don’t we? if one doesn’t believe, why would it be necessary for him to childishly make fun of the believers and their practices? why can’t he be satisfied with just not believing?
here you go again with your kakamamie lawyering. find yourself another pseudo-lawyer to debate about the law and the constitution. i’m not gonna dignify your pretension and inflate this thread with childish argumentations. no siree.
WillyJ,
In what precincts of Modern Christendom would you say the practice of self-flagellation and staged crucifixion is an acceptable, or even holy, ritual, custom, litury or drama?
Ah public displays of piety. Here’s what the Lord Himself has to say about that for your Lenten reflection:
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” Matthew 6:5-6
i think if you conclude from this passage that public displays of worship are wrong, then that is INCORRECT.
jesus never frowned upon public prayer, community worship, devotion, etc.
what he despised was hypocrisy: a strategic display of piety to curry favor, while privately acting against the teaching of his religion.
hypocrisy is hard for people to detect — to do that you need to know what people are doing in public, in private, and you also must be privy to his motivation.
now, It is possible for some of these people to be hypocrites, but i challenge anyone to prove it.
jesus’ admonition says that GOD knows with perfect certainty whether you are a hypocrite. hence, you must be aware of it, and guard against it.
lastly, i agree that these are frowned upon, but are not banned precisely because we ought to allow people to show their devotion in a manner that they feel is true to their feelings about jesus.
the fact that the nails are designed a certain way as to eliminate the possibilty of death is NOT an issue.
OF COURSE! no one ought to die to show god your devotion. the risk of death doesn’t help you here. this isn’t the guiness book of records.
I have no problem with public displays of piety in general and am not calling for a general lockdown. But this is not a display of piety. It is exhibitionistic sado masochism that mocks the rest of Christianity with a kind of literal fairy tale-ism that boggles sensibility.
i think if you conclude from this passage that public displays of worship are wrong, then that is INCORRECT.
I conclude no such thing of course, although it’s pretty close to what I take him to mean. ‘You must not be like the hypocrites’ is pretty clear, but so is his instructions to go to a private room and pray. Or flagellate yourself as the case may be.
It’s like this: The hypocrite prays (or flagellates himself if he’s into that) in public, but you arent a hypocrite. Does Jesus say you should pray or flagellate yourself in public or does he say the opposite.
ah, but it can’t be that praying in your room alone is the only way for us to pray, jeg.
jesus himself worshiped in public. prayed in public. prayed in a community. (but he does choose to pray by himself alot, so yeah, praying by yourself is definitely not a bad thing).
its from jesus’ examples of how to pray that we get our traditions today including the praying alone part, which is in part what ‘retreats’ are about. i went on quite a few retreats growing up, and a retreat (by the name itself) picks up from jesus’ own examples of going off alone to pray.
ah, but it can’t be that praying in your room alone is the only way for us to pray, jeg.
Of course. There is also communal prayer in church or synagogue, but I dont consider those ‘public’. The crucifixions in Pampanga on the other hand are very public, with reporters from the BBC or some other in attendance.
GabbyD,
The fact that the nails are designed to produce an exaggerated effect IS an ethical problem for me. I have seen the nails they use. They are engineered to be PHOTOGENIC–they look like huge pegs have been driven into these poor emaciated men’s palms because of the large HEADS, when little more than a picture frame nail sized thing is actually used pierce the hands, which are quickly doused with Merthiolate upon removal.
And it is all a commercial job. LIke an acting role. The town pays. It’s a great role in the theatre of the absurdly SM.
Mel Gibson is of course not only a sadomasochistic drunkard, he is also an anti-Semtic Jew-hating NeoNazi sadomasochistic drunkard. Uhmm, convicted drunkard.
The movie he made was pure S&M pornography. The Men in Skirts wearing their cilices extra-tight just loved it!
DJB,
You must be aware that the Philippine bishops frown upon this and some even condemn self-flagellation. Yes, some will stage this for show but some will stage this as a sincere act of penitence, however ill-advised it may be. Who can tell the difference? You? The bishops?. Let them be, and for that matter let anyone who wishes to practice their faith in their own way (however absurd it may be, as long as it is within the bounds of legal expression of religion) without hinder or derision. Are you keen in publicly denouncing and ridiculing *ALL* public displays of religion? You seem to concentrate your ire on Catholics. But then again, what is your point in this post?
In Bgy. Cutud, where I took these pictures, the Catholic Church and priest were conducting an all day PABASA and were the very center of the flagellants asking passersby to whack them a couple of good ones on sashimi-pied backs and bodies, blood splattering all over the place!
No need to mystify the “penitents”. I’ve talked to several of them in the past. They all claim to be sinners repenting of their sins. But I hope you will examine some of these pictures in detail. I’ve supplied them at medium resolution for those who want to take a gander. Please observe that the NAILS used are of a very special design: exaggeratedly large flat HEADS but thin, almost needle like SHAFTS! Also please note that those who are crucified are not hanging on the nails, whence they would die quickly from asphysxiation. Instead they are all standing quite comfortably on PLATFORMS and observe that in all cases nails are driven through fleshy, skinny areas only. Arms are “strain-relieved” with ropes and the “ordeal” lasts only a few minutes, just enough for the Australian, European and North American paparazzi can get the obligatory annual scoop about Live Crucifixions in the Philippines.
A great deal of money is made by the municipality of Cutud, San Fernando for its annual live pornographic blood feast.
Haha or for that matter Iran, Iraq, Syria and Somalia. Although in that particular religious fanaticism, they seem to prefer slicing open the skin on their skulls instead of filleting the backside of their bodies…But it all involves the spattering and splattering of copious amounts of blood for effect.
It is my contention that stripped of any alleged religious purposes, the acts here portrayed amount to public exhibitions of sadistic and masochistic practices.
If some group were to performs these exact same acts but WITHOUT claims of religious expression, you would find them equally abhorrent.
The Bishops “frown” on these practices? Really? How does the CBCP express such a a “frowning attitude”. Do they not give it tacit approbation and like many here ask that we “respect” the “religious motivations” and “sincere expressions of penitence”.
The principle of Religious Freedom does not demand that we RESPECT every outrageous, deluded or otherwise insane belief held and expressed by anyone.
There are many such beliefs and expressions which I disdain and which everyone else here who is now defending crucifixions would ALSO disdain.
But here we are asked to make an exception in our high standards for ideas and expression BECAUSE of the religious content.
That is not what the Constitution requires. In fact it is what it FORBIDS!
**DJB** It is my contention that stripped of any alleged religious purposes, the acts here portrayed amount to public exhibitions of sadistic and masochistic practices.
Yes, but it is a fact that it is NOT stripped of religious purposes. That obvious premise makes your contention outright invalid. IF there were not any religious purpose, the authorities should rightly haul these people to jail or mental institutions, no?
**DJB** How does the CBCP express such a a “frowning attitude”.
**DJB** The principle of Religious Freedom does not demand that we RESPECT every outrageous, deluded or otherwise insane belief held and expressed by anyone.
I suppose you are wont to brand anyone who differs with you as “insane”. Yes, the constitution cannot mandate RESPECT at your terms, but common decency in a democracy demands that we respect beliefs and expressions of legitimate diversity.
**DJB** There are many such beliefs and expressions which I disdain…
No problem. But when you make a public effort out of it with a motive of derision then I fail to see the constructive effort in that. But what is your definition of RESPECT? Again you appear to pick on Catholics as favorites. “Many such beliefs”? Hmm..what do you think of Ramadan fasting for example? Does it pass your “high standards”? Is it too much to RESPECT Catholics, Muslims and people of other faiths, even though one has reservations in rationalizing their practices?
/
WillyJ,
In my opinion you only find these practices tolerable or acceptable because the religious beliefs with which they are imbued happen to be the same religious purposes which you subscribe to, even though you would not choose these particular means of expressing them.
If they were being done for a religion with which you violently disagree, such as Islam, or the Great Spaghetti Monster, I bet you would feel derision and disdain as well.
My point is that just because such practices are done with alleged religious purposes is no reason for me to respect such beliefs and practices. Not any more than if this were a Pastafarian ritual in which they sliced pizza open until they bled.
Now, am I doing something wrong by publicly disdaining such practices? Not at all. I oppose all forms of PUBLIC CHARLATANNISM, and FAKERY. For no one is ACTUALLY being crucified. This is all maudlin street theatre for Christians is it not?
WillyJ,
Do you RESPECT astrology? or fortune telling? or palmistry? or tea leaf reading?
Regarding the “religious” purposes of public sado masochism, doctrinally speaking this is complete nonsense as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. CONTRITION, as required for sincere penitence, is all that is required. Crucifying or flagellating oneself is not only superfluous it is a mortal sin. Yet the propaganda value is too immense for the Catholic Church to take any serious measures against it.
But as one who thinks he understands Catholic teaching, I can tell you that these practices are unsustainable and indefensible as forms of penance or contrition.
They are vain exhibitionism of the most pitiable sort.
As one “one who understands Catholic teaching” but is no believer, why even bother? Your past posts with religious tags show that you deride everything that concerns the practice of Catholicism, whether it is “indefensible” or not from an intellectual point of view. Though I agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, what I don’t understand is you seem to deride just for derision’s sake. Get over it, you can’t diminish Catholicism. Its been here for over 2,000 years with far more formidable challenges but it will stay on, and on. Learn to live with it without fostering animosity. This last one is unsolicited advise, I hope you don’t mind.
Religion is part of the fearful childhood of our race. That it has been a long childhood cannot be denied. But there are many things that last a long time which ought not to have. Things like slavery and gender discrimination. Or “sciences” like astrology and diseases like tuberculosis and malaria. yet none of these things, which are mental and physical diseases are desirable, nor necessarily permanent.
Thus the “2000 year old Church” argument is unavailing against the greater ideals of humanity than the praising and adoration of alleged deities.
The fallacy in Bencard lies in this: he wants us to respect anything that is done with religious purposes, by just “not believing.” Yet every perversion, every oppression by the Spanish Taliban was religiously motivated or justified!
No. We have positive duty to combat evils such as this mental disease. Live crucifixions and exhibitionistic sadomasochism are wrong.
We do not owe respect or toleration to this abomination. Even the Church officially disowns this.
another in-your-face kind of distortion. did i say to respect anything done with religious purpose “by just ‘not believing’”?
you be the judge folks. is this deliberate misrepresentation (dishonesty) or just an utter failure of comprehension?
There is no question in my mind, from talking to some of them, that these folks are mentally ill! Many are poor and this is their only sustenance, along with similar roles in other seasons.
To tolerate it is to condone the practices of mental disease without trying to cure it. There is nothing religious in this expression. The call to respect it is illogical and essentially insane.
are you qualified to diagnose insanity? or is this another self-exalting pretension? one man’s insanity is another man’s genius. need i give you specific examples? btw, stop talking with authoritative pomposity on matters you know nothing about.
Bencard,
Is there a point of substance you care to make? About the subject matter of the post, I mean. How many crucifixees do you know personally like I do, Bencard? Do you need a PhD in Psychiatry to detect that some Pinoy is NUTS in the head? I’m just reporting something I have really experienced, whilst you are looking at things from the telescope of Infinity.
Do you defend live crucifixion and self-flagellation as having some kind of redeeming social value?
Bencard,
You want me to see religious purpose where there is plain bloodletting and gratuitous violence done to one’s person. Various acts of self-mutilation, daily observed in mental asylums would attest to the sheer insanity of such habitual corporal punishment. There is no doctrinal, dogmatic or religious purpose served by these acts, other than exhibitionism of the most pharasaic kind. Your defense of them is vacuous. Ironically you would make me out to be an inquisitor, wanting to burn people at the stake! It is these sick folks that need help. We are not arguing theology now, Benny, but psychiatry.
this is not about my desire to wipe out superstition and religion, just mental illness, though I also blame the Church that condones this sort of thing with secret relish.
djb, the roman colosseum was once drenched with the blood of countless Christians for no other reason than that the romans of the period, led by their emperors, did not like the Christians’ religious beliefs and practices. i have no reason to fear that you could be the next nero, but the same aberration that infested his mind could be as repulsive coming from yours. and pray tell, how do you propose to wipe out what you have concluded to be “mental illness”? by insulting and harassing these “sick folks” to death?
Well from Torquemada you make me out to be Nero. All I am doing is pointing out a mental illness that is protected by a false sense of respect for “Religion”. I am familiar enough with the literature to assert that most of these crucifixees probably have a form of paranoid schizophrenia and ought to be treated as such, not held up as some kind of special penitential class of pious religious persons. They are not. They are just sick in the head or acting out of social peer pressure in these sad and tragic communities.
These people are infected with a virus in their head and need help. To portray me as leading an inquisition or calling for their brutal suppression is to wish I could be accused of sins that the Catholic Church in history has indeed been guilty of.
how easy it is to make a self-serving judgment. calling your mind “puny” is not ad hominem considering that you take it upon yourself the “brutal suppression” of practices you don’t like, but only in your puny mind because you have not one iota of authority to do that.
DJB: These people are infected with a virus in their head and need help.
Let us not discount the possibility that theyre sane and need to earn a living. I can’t say anything about what’s going on in their heart or hearts, of course. Going through self-inflicted pain to earn a living is not alien to anybody who watches hard-core professional wrestling. You were there, DJB. Were they receiving monetary compensation?
I don’t discount the possibility. Indeed I’ve verified it! But more than that, there is not religious justification or support for this. The Church officially disapproves. Yet it tolerates the practice. I believe for purely propaganda purposes.
Jeg,
Of course they were receiving money, and they were not denying it. The Mayor cuts the backsides of the platoon of official penitent-flagellants at Cutud broken bottles of beer and gin, which they imbibe in large quantities before the whole thing starts at 8am. I did not of course see money changing hands, but even the Mass Media are reporting how much the town folk all make from parking fees, vending food, cell load, drinks, etc. The town charges a pretty penny for allowing photographers and journalists to enter the fenced in Calvary, especially foreigners, who think nothing of it of course.
We respect other people’s faith. If they crucify themselves as a way
to remove their sins. Then, let them do it.
Your food maybe poison of other people.
We dont even know the real definition of Sins, except as evil deeds
according to the Holy Books. What are the consequences, except eternal Hell according to religious teachers. Nobody has yet returned from the Dead at present, to say and give evidence there is Hell. Explain in full view on the CNN about life after death.
There is a whole Universe to look to. Our Planet Earth is just one
speck in this vast Galaxy. Our Galaxy is just one of the billions of
Galaxies in the Universe. We have to progress our mind sets.
has senyor emperor garlic been banished?
To demonstrate the Lenten season practice …
simple but sincere…. daw.
MANILA, Philippines – Senator Panfilo “Ping” Lacson urged President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo to “realize your faults and repent with all your heart” on Lent.
“My Lenten message for Gloria Arroyo is simple but sincere,” Lacson said in a statement on Wednesday. “May the true meaning of Lent finally fill her heart, mind and soul.”
“May she realize her faults. May she repent with all her heart, so that
the Filipino people may live better lives,” he said.
The senator also asked the Filipino people not to lose hope and instead to pray for wisdom in choosing their leaders, courage to overcome the hardships, and unity to bring change to the country
“Lent is the time when Christians remember how Christ suffered and died for our sins so that we may live fully. It is also the time when we are called to reflect on our lives; in the hope that we may realize our faults, repent with all our hearts, and try to live better lives,
as we anticipate the glory of Easter,” he said.
DJB, sorry for being so clueless, but I can’t fathom the link between the pictures and the title of this post? And besides, what is the point?
DJB’s point in giving this particular post entry a title “Damaso Lives!” is all about the Roman Catholic Church’s deeply rooted influence and effect of indoctrination (as what atheism called the “delusion” on the concept of God) to its “faithful believers”. This influence and effect is what the spirit of Padre Damaso represents.
In some of Dr. Jose Rizal’s writings, Padre Damaso is the embodiment of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church under Spanish rule which indoctrinates and enslaves the Filipinos ancestors during the time of occupation of the Spaniards in our land.
It is interesting to note that such Lenten practice can be observed mostly in countries that once were colonized by Spain. In the Philippines, it has even become a yearly tourist attraction. Some of the higher Roman Catholic Church (RCC) authorities do not agree with this Lenten practice because it is already veering from the original traditions and teachings of the RCC.
This Lenten practice seems to portray Padre Damaso still flagellating its Filipino slaves every good Friday even if the Spanish occupation had long been over.
Indeed, that tyrannical fat-bellied friar still lives among the Filipino psyche and still whips our national spirit every once in a while.
Wrong, DJB! To be strict about Noli Me Tangere’s literary interpretation, the last known Padre Damaso was Cardinal Sin! :)
These Pinoys having themselves crucified are descendants of Sisa, who lost her mind because of poverty.
I blame these people’s parish priests for not counseling them well enough that JC already redeemed their sins.
Fraile Salvi lives!!!
Fraile Salvi lives?
Where? Have you seen the old PEEPING TOM lurking around here somewhere?
Tell me. I shall send the DOGS out immediately to hunt him down.
Adventurero (or to whoever has an opinion on this question): They don’t explain it very well. Why do the Catholic or Baptist churches say this: Children to be born next year or in 2015 are already considered sinners.
UP n grad,
It is all Eve’s fault, the Catholic Church teaches. Through her, “original sin” is said to be present in the souls that are issued to make human beings ever since the race was cast out of Eden. Thus, we are GUILTY and bound for Hell, even before we are born. But during the period of testing that is called Life, we can be made worthy of the promises of Christ of eternal paradise or eternal torture depending upon a Final Judgment that will be made at some far and future date uncertain.
The Saying you ask about is an advertisement for faithful parents to enroll their offspring for Brain Washing, err, Sin-Absolving Salvation classes. As early and as defenseless as possible, if you please Mr. and Mrs.
I saw those “rituals” on Ripley’s Believe It Or Not. Find it very extreme and disturbing. When I was still living in the Philippines, my dad rescued a kitten from a bunch of messed-up street kids who crucified the poor creature. Luckily, it was still alive. What does this have to do with DJB’s post? Nothing. It’s just that everytime I see live crucixions like that, I remember the kitten. At least (I assume), the devotees in those pictures volunteer themselves to be crucified.
Meow!
There ought to be some kind of religious magic or miracle that the inflicted wounds of those who volunteered themselves to be nailed on the cross heal without a scar.
And despite the health secretary’s rather uncharacteristic medical advise, they chose not to take in any drug or medicine or that would have run counter to their religious belief, doesn’t it?
Primer,
It’s more of a mental health problem, I would say.
atheists of the world, whatever you do, please don’t ridicule and disrespect those who believe. leave them alone in the free exercise of their religion. the right not to believe doesn’t include a license to deride a lawful display of one’s faith.
Happy easter, Manoy. Although I am a believer like you, I have a much more liberal interpretation of free speech in that it includes the license to deride lawful displays of faith. So far none of the atheists who wash up on these here parts have advocated using the power of the State to squelch religiosity in public so that’s ok. We have mouths and pens and keyboards as well so it’s a fair fight.
Thank you Jeg. BTW, I doubt you would want to defend these particular crucifixees that I had the privilege of photographing and interviewing. You see they are actually Muncipal Employees and the scientific appreciation of the “props” and articles of their trade might make even Bencard wonder if some kind of prosecution for FRAUD ought not be mounted against some of these hypocritical scoundrels.
It seems some people think some approximation of a real crucifixion is taking place or that superhuman pain is being endured in holy penitence.
The truth could hurt the pious and piously tolerant of this spectacular example of Modern Hypocriscy left over from the era of the Spanish Taliban!
you’re right, jeg. but have you heard of “political correctness”? i guess there is no constitutional prohibition in calling a negro, “nigger”, a homosexual, “faggot”, a pakistani, “raghead”, etc., etc. but we observe political correctness in the name of peace and civility, if not to avoid physical violence, don’t we? if one doesn’t believe, why would it be necessary for him to childishly make fun of the believers and their practices? why can’t he be satisfied with just not believing?
Bencard,
I do not think there is a Constitutional warrant for exhibitionistic sado-masochism.
“No religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil and political rights.”
This is what the Law says. Thus any alleged religious content may not be used to justify OR disrespect an “Establishment of Religion”.
here you go again with your kakamamie lawyering. find yourself another pseudo-lawyer to debate about the law and the constitution. i’m not gonna dignify your pretension and inflate this thread with childish argumentations. no siree.
Remind DJB to go back into a past incarnation and do Physics
Good! I shall take that as affirmation of the meaning of Church and State as we have all conceded previously:
Democracy is all morality, no theology.
Stare decisis non movere
WillyJ,
In what precincts of Modern Christendom would you say the practice of self-flagellation and staged crucifixion is an acceptable, or even holy, ritual, custom, litury or drama?
In Dan Brown’s Opus Dei! LOL.
Ah public displays of piety. Here’s what the Lord Himself has to say about that for your Lenten reflection:
Very good, Jeg! Exhibitionistic Piety has a special name–pharisaicism.
i think if you conclude from this passage that public displays of worship are wrong, then that is INCORRECT.
jesus never frowned upon public prayer, community worship, devotion, etc.
what he despised was hypocrisy: a strategic display of piety to curry favor, while privately acting against the teaching of his religion.
hypocrisy is hard for people to detect — to do that you need to know what people are doing in public, in private, and you also must be privy to his motivation.
now, It is possible for some of these people to be hypocrites, but i challenge anyone to prove it.
jesus’ admonition says that GOD knows with perfect certainty whether you are a hypocrite. hence, you must be aware of it, and guard against it.
lastly, i agree that these are frowned upon, but are not banned precisely because we ought to allow people to show their devotion in a manner that they feel is true to their feelings about jesus.
the fact that the nails are designed a certain way as to eliminate the possibilty of death is NOT an issue.
OF COURSE! no one ought to die to show god your devotion. the risk of death doesn’t help you here. this isn’t the guiness book of records.
I have no problem with public displays of piety in general and am not calling for a general lockdown. But this is not a display of piety. It is exhibitionistic sado masochism that mocks the rest of Christianity with a kind of literal fairy tale-ism that boggles sensibility.
i think if you conclude from this passage that public displays of worship are wrong, then that is INCORRECT.
I conclude no such thing of course, although it’s pretty close to what I take him to mean. ‘You must not be like the hypocrites’ is pretty clear, but so is his instructions to go to a private room and pray. Or flagellate yourself as the case may be.
It’s like this: The hypocrite prays (or flagellates himself if he’s into that) in public, but you arent a hypocrite. Does Jesus say you should pray or flagellate yourself in public or does he say the opposite.
ah, but it can’t be that praying in your room alone is the only way for us to pray, jeg.
jesus himself worshiped in public. prayed in public. prayed in a community. (but he does choose to pray by himself alot, so yeah, praying by yourself is definitely not a bad thing).
its from jesus’ examples of how to pray that we get our traditions today including the praying alone part, which is in part what ‘retreats’ are about. i went on quite a few retreats growing up, and a retreat (by the name itself) picks up from jesus’ own examples of going off alone to pray.
ah, but it can’t be that praying in your room alone is the only way for us to pray, jeg.
Of course. There is also communal prayer in church or synagogue, but I dont consider those ‘public’. The crucifixions in Pampanga on the other hand are very public, with reporters from the BBC or some other in attendance.
GabbyD,
The fact that the nails are designed to produce an exaggerated effect IS an ethical problem for me. I have seen the nails they use. They are engineered to be PHOTOGENIC–they look like huge pegs have been driven into these poor emaciated men’s palms because of the large HEADS, when little more than a picture frame nail sized thing is actually used pierce the hands, which are quickly doused with Merthiolate upon removal.
And it is all a commercial job. LIke an acting role. The town pays. It’s a great role in the theatre of the absurdly SM.
@DJB
interesting… question: by this logic, you had also opposed the movie the passion of the christ?
it too was cinematic (photogenic), a straight depiction of the horrors of the crucifixion. it was also fake and made alot of money.
am i right? this is consistent w ur beliefs, no?
Mel Gibson is of course not only a sadomasochistic drunkard, he is also an anti-Semtic Jew-hating NeoNazi sadomasochistic drunkard. Uhmm, convicted drunkard.
The movie he made was pure S&M pornography. The Men in Skirts wearing their cilices extra-tight just loved it!
DJB,
You must be aware that the Philippine bishops frown upon this and some even condemn self-flagellation. Yes, some will stage this for show but some will stage this as a sincere act of penitence, however ill-advised it may be. Who can tell the difference? You? The bishops?. Let them be, and for that matter let anyone who wishes to practice their faith in their own way (however absurd it may be, as long as it is within the bounds of legal expression of religion) without hinder or derision. Are you keen in publicly denouncing and ridiculing *ALL* public displays of religion? You seem to concentrate your ire on Catholics. But then again, what is your point in this post?
In Bgy. Cutud, where I took these pictures, the Catholic Church and priest were conducting an all day PABASA and were the very center of the flagellants asking passersby to whack them a couple of good ones on sashimi-pied backs and bodies, blood splattering all over the place!
You say the Bishops FROWN on these practices??
DJB
These kinds of rites have a pre Christian origin. You forget that Christianity in the Philippines is just the icing on the cake.
Fray Damaso and his kind never really scratched the surface. The Protestant Americans fared even worse.
The Catholic bishops really can’t connect with these penitents since they don’t walk on the same path with them.
No need to mystify the “penitents”. I’ve talked to several of them in the past. They all claim to be sinners repenting of their sins. But I hope you will examine some of these pictures in detail. I’ve supplied them at medium resolution for those who want to take a gander. Please observe that the NAILS used are of a very special design: exaggeratedly large flat HEADS but thin, almost needle like SHAFTS! Also please note that those who are crucified are not hanging on the nails, whence they would die quickly from asphysxiation. Instead they are all standing quite comfortably on PLATFORMS and observe that in all cases nails are driven through fleshy, skinny areas only. Arms are “strain-relieved” with ropes and the “ordeal” lasts only a few minutes, just enough for the Australian, European and North American paparazzi can get the obligatory annual scoop about Live Crucifixions in the Philippines.
A great deal of money is made by the municipality of Cutud, San Fernando for its annual live pornographic blood feast.
Have seen something quite similar in Bali.
Haha or for that matter Iran, Iraq, Syria and Somalia. Although in that particular religious fanaticism, they seem to prefer slicing open the skin on their skulls instead of filleting the backside of their bodies…But it all involves the spattering and splattering of copious amounts of blood for effect.
WillyJ,
It is my contention that stripped of any alleged religious purposes, the acts here portrayed amount to public exhibitions of sadistic and masochistic practices.
If some group were to performs these exact same acts but WITHOUT claims of religious expression, you would find them equally abhorrent.
The Bishops “frown” on these practices? Really? How does the CBCP express such a a “frowning attitude”. Do they not give it tacit approbation and like many here ask that we “respect” the “religious motivations” and “sincere expressions of penitence”.
The principle of Religious Freedom does not demand that we RESPECT every outrageous, deluded or otherwise insane belief held and expressed by anyone.
There are many such beliefs and expressions which I disdain and which everyone else here who is now defending crucifixions would ALSO disdain.
But here we are asked to make an exception in our high standards for ideas and expression BECAUSE of the religious content.
That is not what the Constitution requires. In fact it is what it FORBIDS!
**DJB** It is my contention that stripped of any alleged religious purposes, the acts here portrayed amount to public exhibitions of sadistic and masochistic practices.
Yes, but it is a fact that it is NOT stripped of religious purposes. That obvious premise makes your contention outright invalid. IF there were not any religious purpose, the authorities should rightly haul these people to jail or mental institutions, no?
**DJB** How does the CBCP express such a a “frowning attitude”.
Time and again they have done so.
**DJB** The principle of Religious Freedom does not demand that we RESPECT every outrageous, deluded or otherwise insane belief held and expressed by anyone.
I suppose you are wont to brand anyone who differs with you as “insane”. Yes, the constitution cannot mandate RESPECT at your terms, but common decency in a democracy demands that we respect beliefs and expressions of legitimate diversity.
**DJB** There are many such beliefs and expressions which I disdain…
No problem. But when you make a public effort out of it with a motive of derision then I fail to see the constructive effort in that. But what is your definition of RESPECT? Again you appear to pick on Catholics as favorites. “Many such beliefs”? Hmm..what do you think of Ramadan fasting for example? Does it pass your “high standards”? Is it too much to RESPECT Catholics, Muslims and people of other faiths, even though one has reservations in rationalizing their practices?
/
WillyJ,
In my opinion you only find these practices tolerable or acceptable because the religious beliefs with which they are imbued happen to be the same religious purposes which you subscribe to, even though you would not choose these particular means of expressing them.
If they were being done for a religion with which you violently disagree, such as Islam, or the Great Spaghetti Monster, I bet you would feel derision and disdain as well.
My point is that just because such practices are done with alleged religious purposes is no reason for me to respect such beliefs and practices. Not any more than if this were a Pastafarian ritual in which they sliced pizza open until they bled.
Now, am I doing something wrong by publicly disdaining such practices? Not at all. I oppose all forms of PUBLIC CHARLATANNISM, and FAKERY. For no one is ACTUALLY being crucified. This is all maudlin street theatre for Christians is it not?
uhuh. so u’d prefer a real crucifixion? strange…
Well it’s either a real crucifixion or this is fake penitence at best, or worse, scatological mockery.
WillyJ,
Do you RESPECT astrology? or fortune telling? or palmistry? or tea leaf reading?
Regarding the “religious” purposes of public sado masochism, doctrinally speaking this is complete nonsense as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. CONTRITION, as required for sincere penitence, is all that is required. Crucifying or flagellating oneself is not only superfluous it is a mortal sin. Yet the propaganda value is too immense for the Catholic Church to take any serious measures against it.
But as one who thinks he understands Catholic teaching, I can tell you that these practices are unsustainable and indefensible as forms of penance or contrition.
They are vain exhibitionism of the most pitiable sort.
As one “one who understands Catholic teaching” but is no believer, why even bother? Your past posts with religious tags show that you deride everything that concerns the practice of Catholicism, whether it is “indefensible” or not from an intellectual point of view. Though I agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, what I don’t understand is you seem to deride just for derision’s sake. Get over it, you can’t diminish Catholicism. Its been here for over 2,000 years with far more formidable challenges but it will stay on, and on. Learn to live with it without fostering animosity. This last one is unsolicited advise, I hope you don’t mind.
Religion is part of the fearful childhood of our race. That it has been a long childhood cannot be denied. But there are many things that last a long time which ought not to have. Things like slavery and gender discrimination. Or “sciences” like astrology and diseases like tuberculosis and malaria. yet none of these things, which are mental and physical diseases are desirable, nor necessarily permanent.
Thus the “2000 year old Church” argument is unavailing against the greater ideals of humanity than the praising and adoration of alleged deities.
only shows which memes are powerful for natural selection then, djb. maybe it’s really enscripted in the genes. a signature perhaps?
happy easter!
how do you know its a mortal sin?
The fallacy in Bencard lies in this: he wants us to respect anything that is done with religious purposes, by just “not believing.” Yet every perversion, every oppression by the Spanish Taliban was religiously motivated or justified!
No. We have positive duty to combat evils such as this mental disease. Live crucifixions and exhibitionistic sadomasochism are wrong.
We do not owe respect or toleration to this abomination. Even the Church officially disowns this.
another in-your-face kind of distortion. did i say to respect anything done with religious purpose “by just ‘not believing’”?
you be the judge folks. is this deliberate misrepresentation (dishonesty) or just an utter failure of comprehension?
so i’m confused.
are you against it coz its insane?
or coz its a sin?
There is no question in my mind, from talking to some of them, that these folks are mentally ill! Many are poor and this is their only sustenance, along with similar roles in other seasons.
To tolerate it is to condone the practices of mental disease without trying to cure it. There is nothing religious in this expression. The call to respect it is illogical and essentially insane.
are you qualified to diagnose insanity? or is this another self-exalting pretension? one man’s insanity is another man’s genius. need i give you specific examples? btw, stop talking with authoritative pomposity on matters you know nothing about.
Bencard,
Is there a point of substance you care to make? About the subject matter of the post, I mean. How many crucifixees do you know personally like I do, Bencard? Do you need a PhD in Psychiatry to detect that some Pinoy is NUTS in the head? I’m just reporting something I have really experienced, whilst you are looking at things from the telescope of Infinity.
Do you defend live crucifixion and self-flagellation as having some kind of redeeming social value?
What distinguishes it from pure pornography?
but like the man said, what’s the point, djb? what do you wanna do with these “nuts”, burn them at the stakes? what’s eating you, man?
again, speak for yourself. what they do has value among people with the same belief. they don’t care about your value judgment.
their act of penance is no more comparable to pornography, despite how your mind perceives it, than atheism is.
Bencard,
You want me to see religious purpose where there is plain bloodletting and gratuitous violence done to one’s person. Various acts of self-mutilation, daily observed in mental asylums would attest to the sheer insanity of such habitual corporal punishment. There is no doctrinal, dogmatic or religious purpose served by these acts, other than exhibitionism of the most pharasaic kind. Your defense of them is vacuous. Ironically you would make me out to be an inquisitor, wanting to burn people at the stake! It is these sick folks that need help. We are not arguing theology now, Benny, but psychiatry.
this is not about my desire to wipe out superstition and religion, just mental illness, though I also blame the Church that condones this sort of thing with secret relish.
djb, the roman colosseum was once drenched with the blood of countless Christians for no other reason than that the romans of the period, led by their emperors, did not like the Christians’ religious beliefs and practices. i have no reason to fear that you could be the next nero, but the same aberration that infested his mind could be as repulsive coming from yours. and pray tell, how do you propose to wipe out what you have concluded to be “mental illness”? by insulting and harassing these “sick folks” to death?
Well from Torquemada you make me out to be Nero. All I am doing is pointing out a mental illness that is protected by a false sense of respect for “Religion”. I am familiar enough with the literature to assert that most of these crucifixees probably have a form of paranoid schizophrenia and ought to be treated as such, not held up as some kind of special penitential class of pious religious persons. They are not. They are just sick in the head or acting out of social peer pressure in these sad and tragic communities.
These people are infected with a virus in their head and need help. To portray me as leading an inquisition or calling for their brutal suppression is to wish I could be accused of sins that the Catholic Church in history has indeed been guilty of.
which you are, djb, (calling for suppression) but only in your puny mind.
Your out of arguments, as usual Bencard, and so are down to ad hominem. Boo Hoo Hoo Hoo.
why is it wrong again?
how easy it is to make a self-serving judgment. calling your mind “puny” is not ad hominem considering that you take it upon yourself the “brutal suppression” of practices you don’t like, but only in your puny mind because you have not one iota of authority to do that.
“Brutal suppression”?
Who’s idea is that? Would it work? Where have I called for the “brutal suppression” of a mental illness?
DJB: These people are infected with a virus in their head and need help.
Let us not discount the possibility that theyre sane and need to earn a living. I can’t say anything about what’s going on in their heart or hearts, of course. Going through self-inflicted pain to earn a living is not alien to anybody who watches hard-core professional wrestling. You were there, DJB. Were they receiving monetary compensation?
I don’t discount the possibility. Indeed I’ve verified it! But more than that, there is not religious justification or support for this. The Church officially disapproves. Yet it tolerates the practice. I believe for purely propaganda purposes.
Jeg,
Of course they were receiving money, and they were not denying it. The Mayor cuts the backsides of the platoon of official penitent-flagellants at Cutud broken bottles of beer and gin, which they imbibe in large quantities before the whole thing starts at 8am. I did not of course see money changing hands, but even the Mass Media are reporting how much the town folk all make from parking fees, vending food, cell load, drinks, etc. The town charges a pretty penny for allowing photographers and journalists to enter the fenced in Calvary, especially foreigners, who think nothing of it of course.
Jeg,
It’s true they are not all crazy, but anyone who thinks this is about Religion or Piety ought to have their heads examined themselves, hehe.
how do you know this isn’t about devotion by the penitents? did you talk to the penitents about why they are doing this?
Yes, I did talk to many of them, and not just on this occasion. Many do it for money. It’s a job in the town. Like acting in a porno flick.
in that case, for these people who are doing it for money, then i join you in saying that this ought to be ended.