I consider myself a moderate democrat, that’s because I can sometimes disagree with the decisions of the party as a whole, but watching President Barack Obama’s Health Care address to a joint session of Congress, I couldn’t stem the tide of anger as I saw the disrespect that should never be bestowed upon a President during such an address. It’s not civil, it’s just not right.
In a speech that inspired, that sought middle ground while castigating the lies being put out there in the Health Care Debate, perhaps the low light of the night came from Representative Joe Wilson a congressman from South Carolina. The moment came Joe Wilson blatantly shouted “You lie!” as President Obama made clear that the Healt Care Plan being discussed does not offer health care to illegal immigrants.
The Health Care debate took a turn for the worse in August, as extreme conservative pundits, groups and organizations made a concerted effort to turn Town Hall meetings into a shouting match.
Now, the importance of Health Care cannot be denied, it is important for all Americans, including Filipino-Americans. Considering the many Filipinos who have a vested interest in having good access to health care for themselves and their families, I think it is only right that we take notice as the push to pass this bill is in its last lap.
It is not correct an assertion that Republicans take when they say that we should take this bill slowly. They do not realize that this is a bill decades in the making. As President Obama said, the easy way out would be to kick the can down the road. But easy is not always right.
When Joe Wilson, A Republican Congressman saw it fit to yell during a presidential address to Congress, and not only yell, but to yell in anger, “He Lied”, that is something inexcusable and shows just how much civility the fringe right wing has become. You can hear him in the video below.
I submit that The Republican Party is no longer a big tent party it once was, a noble party with noble ideas and ideologies, but it is now a party that has been hijacked by extremists with a narrow right wing agenda. The Republican party has been hijacked by the likes of Joe Wilson, it is a party that can organize hate-filled groups in order to promote an atmosphere of anger and hate, even in events such as Town Hall meetings for Health Care debate. And it is a party that has lost all of its civility.
What we saw in August during shout-filled matches in these Town Hall meetings was a deliberate attempt, and is a continuing deliberate attempt by many Right Wing groups, with the support of some Health Insurance Industry players, as well as extremist conservatives that see it fit to undermine civility in politics.
When we saw a comparison of end of life consultation being compared to euthenasia, when they termed it as “pulling the plug on grandma”, then I have a problem with that. All Americans should have a problem with that irresponsible kind of rhetoric.
You see, the Christian Right no longer is against any platform or any health bill, nor is it even against certain government programs. The sole purpose of the current right wing extremists is just pure hate.
The Republican Party has been hijacked, the health care debate has been the mechanism to get the all the right wing extremists out of the woodwork. The problem I have with this is that the fringe right has had a swaying affect on the mainstream Republicans and mainstream media as well.
The attacks from such hecklers like Joe Wilson, it should not be condoned. I want my Republican friends to be proud once again of their historic and noble party. Joe Wilson is not a politician worthy of such a political party.
I end my commentary by sharing the last few words from President Barack Obama’s speech yesterday:
But that is not what the moment calls for. That’s not what we came here to do. We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it. I still believe we can act even when it’s hard.
I still believe — I still believe that we can act when it’s hard. I still believe we can replace acrimony with civility, and gridlock with progress. I still believe we can do great things, and that here and now we will meet history’s test.
Popularity: 2% [?]
Nick,
You are showing your bias. Why blame the Republicans for seeming difficulty of passing the National Health Care Bill when both houses are controlled by the Democracts?
Democrats on the state level are losing their popularity because of these town hall debates and therefore have some concern supporting the bill itself and Obama has to take center stage on the debate to assure the Democrats that everything will be okay.
Removing the health care from “vested private insurance” and medical practitioners and placing it in the hands of the government is just like getting the “lollipop” from another guy and put it in the hands of the government and government bureaucrats enjoying the lollipop themselves.
Here is a link to balance the entire debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWqE4w4X0TY&feature=related
My bias is towards a civil debate JCC, I have numerous numerous Republican friends, I agree very much with some of the input that has been given by Republicans. These are not the fringe and extremists that you see in these vitriolic town hall meetings that they have been instructed to go to in droves. I’m sorry, but if wanting a civil debate is bias, then I’m biased.
Hey Nick,
Whaddaya mean ‘nemerous numerous’? You can ‘agree much’ but not ‘very much.’ Obama’s lies deserves such outrageous yell.
Look at this way JCC. I am against putting lies out there.
Death Panels?
Health Care for Illegal Immigrants?
Pulling the plug on grandma?
These are all lies that have been perpetrated by Right Wing extremists hell bent on derailing the debate and actual debate. Even John McCain and the Republican Party showed their dismay at what this Rep. Joe Wilson did.
That is what I have a problem with. I don’t mind a healthy debate with regards to health care, how to pay for health care, malpractice and tort reform, etc. These are legitimate issues. Not the petty childish behavior of a Representative from South Carolina.
you were seeing the worst of the debate and those were not from honorable Republicans.. but democracy has to show tolerance not only of the ideas we love, but even those we hated.
‘Health Care for Illegal Immigrants?’
What’s the question mark for?
Nick does not know that illegal immigrants can get healthcare in a lot of US states.
Nick,
There is just no mechanism in the bill how to determine Americans from illegal immigrants. After all they are labelled ‘illegal’
Right?
Thanks
Jcc,
Nick is right and you are right. Nick is right in that a kind of poison has spread within the Republican party. It is the kind of sickness that views serious opposition as “unAmerican”. You can see the extremism, the name-calling, the insults, the intimidation here on FV, too. It is a small part of the entire party, but it is loud and visible and hard for the press to ignore.
You are right in that the sickness has invaded both parties. Both are focused more on winning “for the Party” than for the people. The party-line votes are testimony of the paralysis facing American politics; it is like gangs who have a gang fight build up more hate, so the next fight is more violent. On and on it spirals down.
Our mass media society lives on blurbs and sound bites; it has infested American society with reality-show shallowness, all the way to the halls of Congress. It may not be possible to get back to dignity again. There is no framework for it.
The US is unlikely to be defeated militarily or economically; defeat is likely to be from a cancer from within, the loss of civility.
Joe
Joe,
you’ve read, “the assault on reason” by Al Gore?
Cocoy,
Actually, I have not read that, but will put it on my “to sneak past book taxes” list. I respect Al Gore’s thinking about changes affecting our peoples and planet. We do not live in a static condition, for sure. Well, except in the Philippines, stuck in time . . . maybe that is why I like it so much here. The US has become broadly shallow. Here, it is just in government. Everyone else is out making a living the best they can. That is more genuine.
Joe
Hey Joe and Nick,
A nation will collapse on “lies tucked behind civility”.
You must realize that it takes a man to work hard without getting paid in order for another man to spend it without working hard.If half of the population realize that the fruits of their hardwork is spent by half of the population that do not work, a nation will fall.
That is where you must be enlightened that a “lie” is hidden behind the pretense that the “government is the savior”.
THe govt is not a savior. It is a lot more like a Giant Spending Machine.
What’s wrong with shouting “You Lied” at the president? We do it all the time and using more foul language than this.
Danny, just because it is done “all the time”.. “using more four language”.. does it mean that’s it’s okay?
My question is.. is it right to do so?
in the end, which is more foul, foul language – or foul actions?
hypocrisy dude.
I’m being sarcastic, Nick.
BTW, would you have the same reactions if it happened to GMA?
danny, now that the shoe is on the other foot, the liberals cannot seem to handle it. what else is new? anyway, wilson has apologized, obama has accepted, and the democrats promise to spell it out in the bill that ILLEGAL immigrants will not enjoy its benefits at taxpayers expense.
(Medicare and social security contributions.) If that is socialism compared to the European countries and Canada than that means that JCC and Bencard are simply idiots. JA_G.
First I have never claimed that the proposed national health care is socialism.
If indeed Canada is a model for socialized health care, I am just amazed that some Canadians would seek medical help in U.S. hospitals.
• A 2002 study by Katz, Cardiff, et al, reported the number of Canadians using U.S. services to be “barely detectible relative to the use of care by Canadians at home” and that the results “do not support the widespread perception that Canadian residents seek care extensively in the United States.” [10]
• According to a September 14, 2007, article from CTV News, Canadian Liberal MP Belinda Stronach went to the United States for breast cancer surgery in June 2007. Stronach’s spokesperson Greg MacEachern was quoted in the article saying that the US was the best place to have this type of surgery done. Stronach paid for the surgery out of her own pocket.[65] Prior to this incident, Stronach had stated in an interview that she was against two-tiered health care.[66]
• When Robert Bourassa, the premier of Quebec, needed cancer treatment, he went to the US to get it.[67]
• In 2007, it was reported that Canada sent scores of pregnant women to the US to give birth.[68] In 2007 a woman from Calgary who was pregnant with quadruplets was sent to Great Falls, Montana to give birth. An article on this incident states there were no Canadian hospitals with enough neo-natal intensive beds to accommodate the extremely rare quadruple birth.[69]
• A January 19, 2008, article in The Globe And Mail states, “More than 150 critically ill Canadians – many with life-threatening cerebral hemorrhages – have been rushed to the United States since the spring of 2006 because they could not obtain intensive-care beds here. Before patients with bleeding in or outside the brain have been whisked through U.S. operating-room doors, some have languished for as long as eight hours in Canadian emergency wards while health-care workers scrambled to locate care.” [70]
My apologies Danny, these days, if it were against GMA, I would be dismayed.
Look, I realize that politics is a rough and tumble topic, there’s no shortage of that here on FV itself.
The realization that I have come out with, as I feel I have moved to the center myself these past years, is that debate is so important in a democracy. But it is civility that makes debate worthwhile and can bring even more people to the table and converse.
JCC,
You are right. I just wanna say that it is a joke. Dear Doctor Government (MD) is a big joke.
Corporates will be the one to benefit from this government health care plan. A consequent monopoly only protects few and burdens many.
Redd,
Okay, this means you are either: (a) accepting of health care in America as it is, or (b) have a different plan for giving people better health care.
If the former, I would say you lack compassion. If the latter, what is your plan?
Joe
Joe,
First, when i say ‘government’ i mean federal.
You know what is wrong with you? You always think that the federal government is a savior. If you change your thinking my friend, you will not be asking me those questions at all.
The federal government is not an angel. It is an institution controlled by the bureaucrats, lobbyist and corporates that have huge political clout in the Washington.
Just leave the business to the private companies or better yet at the STATE level. Not to Washington. The present system is a mess. Look at the Medicare. IT IS BANKRUPT! Who runs it? The government! Look at the Social Security. It is deteriorating much like any social projects controlled by the federal government.
What can i offer then?. My answer is… change your thinking first and you will know how it is.
Thanks
Redd,
And as I read with care, as you suggest, I see that sliming is the name of your game. Dropping the “idiot” word, suggesting that I can’t read, everything but discussing issues.
The US is not bankrupt. If it were, China would be freaking out. The US was on a crash course toward bankruptcy in late 2008 but was stabilized by using some of that borrowing power you hate in order to release the credit lock-up that froze the economy. Your way, kicking that dastardly government out of our lives, would have caused bankruptcy.
So, “my friend”, you think backward, and no way in hell will I ever come around to your way of thinking. Nor do I care to interact further with your extraordinarily brusque and offensive style. Your brain is rich with knee-jerk judgment and fully calcified against intelligent discourse.
If you had been around here on FV for a while, studying instead of popping off, you would would understand that I criticize the US government when it warrants criticism and praise it when it warrants praise (all in my personal opinion). But you plop in here as if you know me inside out, know what I think, and suggest I am some kind of nitwit because I have the audacity to see things differently than you.
Look in the mirror, pal.
You will see one clear irrelevancy. To me only, of course; others are free to engage with bricks-of-dung fired from lose cannons if they so choose.
Joe
“Removing the health care from “vested private insurance” and medical practitioners and placing it in the hands of the government is just like getting the “lollipop” from another guy and put it in the hands of the government and government bureaucrats enjoying the lollipop themselves.” Not punditry but a canard
There is nothing in the proposal of the Democrats that would mandate a single payer system like Canada or a complete nationalization of the health care sector like the U.K.
The basic fundamental problem for health care in the U.S. is the hyper-inflationary aspects of health care costs and the absence of health insurance for a large segment of the population. Businesses offer health insurance as part of their wages and benefit packages. That directly impacts on the cost of doing business. Other advanced economies have government health care programs. Hence their health care costs are diffused. That puts American companies at a disadvantage in the global markets. Please note that in Germany income taxes for corporations are lower but income taxes for individuals are high. Government health care programs come from the payment of higher taxes.
The problem in the U.S. today stems from the fact that the people hate taxes but insist on government programs.
The major economies of the world are running on the fumes of debts that passes the charges – higher taxes (inflation or otherwise) to future generations.
No one knows when these will all come crashing down but that will be for the future anyway. Most of the men who will vote on programs will be dead anyway.
The Democratic ideal of Jefferson was simply that mainly an ideal. He hated slavery but had to bend to get the idea of the union established. In that sense he became more of the Hamilton than the libertarian Jefferson that he professed to be.
The beauty of the U.S. system of checks and balances is the ability of their governments to be more pragmatic than dogmatic.
The line between the Jeffersonian and Hamiltonian ideals of the two party system are now so blurred. Hence fringe groups have found the space to promote their radical ideas.
Providing a government run health care system is similar to the social security system. There are also private pension fund companies who ply their trade. Mutual funds, hedge funds, company pension funds also exist to complement the compulsory contribution for payroll taxes (Medicare and social security contributions.) If that is socialism compared to the European countries and Canada than that means that JCC and Bencard are simply idiots.
In the midst of a serious financial market collapse the safety nets of the State are holding the society together. Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment Insurance. The private sector has been savaged brutally.
Now tell me that these government run agencies are corrupt and bad for American society. Let any Republican try to move to abolish these state run institutions.
Linear mathematical projections are easy to do but the reality of human nature is very hard to predict.
Taming human wickedness is and always will be an eternal endeavor. For governments to tame wickedness it has to be open but it requires that the citizenry also be astute and enlightened.
Judging from the posts in this blog I would prefer wickedness to run unfettered. Failure is the best educational tool. Blood, sweat and tears the best currency.
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rogoff60
‘The problem in the U.S. today stems from the fact that the people hate taxes but insist on government programs.’
Americans hate taxes but they pay it anyway. There is nothing wrong if they want something back for paying it.
Filipinos hate taxes so they don’t usually pay it. But they still want something back whether they pay it or not.
supremo,
I am American and think US taxes need to be raised to achieve correct fiscal balance and stabilize an economic ship that almost sunk and is still listing hard aport. I also think Filipino taxes should be raised (on property) and lowered (fees for government services such as police and courts).
Your generalities are off base.
Joe
O hell!
Please read history of taxation and how the practice of it begun. A government imposes taxes on its people because, at the first place, it has debts. Government debt cause more tax on the people.
General population do not insists programs. Bureaucrats did it. Where the hell you think they would get the money to fund the programs? Of course from selling T-Bonds to other countries, taking loans from international banks.
China owns the majority of US T-Bonds. USA is in deep debt with China. USA is already bankrupt. And now you say more govt programs?
Redd,
Bankruptcy occurs when an entity’s liabilities exceed its assets, income is insufficient to right the ship, and no one will pony up capital to right the ship. The US is far from bankrupt.
All debt does is allow you to have today what you can use now and in the future.
Your wrong generalization is that Americans hate paying taxes. Some, like you, do. Others accept that the trade-off is reasonable. I do. You are wrong when you say I am like you.
Joe
Joe,
I told you to read more.
Debt is frankly a liability. LOL! Majority of the US T-bonds (if you what it means) is owned by CHINA and international banks and yet you have the guts to say USA is not bankrupt? $13T debt is not a bankruptcy? And these debts are brought upon by the arrogance of the Federal Govt to expand its empire and so much medling in the social services.
I dont know why i hate idiots. I dont mean you are but please… please read more. Ok?
thanks
Joe,
Debt is already a liability my friend. Who resots to debt at the first place? Of course the one who have little or nothing. America’s life blood is not from a sound monetary system. You know why USA is still alive? Because of the borrowings. Borrowings! as oppose to INCOME from hard work of it’s system.
I am not dreaming USA would crash to oblivion. I wish AMERICAN policy would change for good. Limit foreign spending, limit social programs, get their troops back home and mind their own business and stop minding other nations’ sovereign affairs.
Redd, Joe (both americans, I supposed), debt is a liability from an accounting point of view, but from banking point of view, it is an asset.
If you go to a bank to apply for a loan and loan was granted it is because your person or your enterprise is bankable. So the loan granted to you is an approximation of your reliability to make the repayment. Its a badge of honor that someone trusted you with their money.
During the early years of the US War with the British,
France would not lend money to the Continental Congress to help the former colonies prosecute their war against the British. It was only after Continental Congress has achieved a modicum of international recognition and respectablity that France agreed to loan Congress money. So the loan was an approximation of your international standing and your integrity.
China’s loans to the U.S. indicated China’s assessment that America’s financial system is not totally out of sync, otherwise, China would not be pouring in their own capital to America’s financial quicksand.
JCC,
Thanks for that. There is no reason for me to look at it from the Chinese perspective, however.
Yes US was able to avail loans from other countries because of the assurance that USA is great. Well, i am beginning to feel that’s not gonna sustain long. China is not even the largest owner of US securities yet i am sure Chinese government can use that as a leverage against USA whenever a conflict arises.
You just can’t solve the problem of deficits everytime there is deficit spending. US Fed govt relies on that to fund its foreign projects and social programs. In that case, US deficits can never be fixed unless it limits excessive spending abroad and limiting involvement in social programs.
I am not a proud American.
Joe,
Which generalities are off base? The Americans dutifully paying the correct taxes and getting what they paid for or the Filipinos who avoids paying the correct tax but want the expressways to be free, the public hospitals to be stock with the right medicine, the public school kids to have 1 textbook each for each subject, the surroundings to be clean even if they throw their garbage anywhere, their public officials to be incorruptible while receiving poverty level salaries?
supremo,
With apology to Redd, as I gave my answer intended for you to him. Your wrong generalization is that “Americans hate paying taxes”. Some do, some don’t. I don’t.
I would agree with you that many, many Filipinos are far, far away from being willing to abide by the principle of right over wrong, and taxes over cheating.
Joe
Joe,
It was actually J_ag who said this.
‘The problem in the U.S. today stems from the fact that the people hate taxes but insist on government programs.’
Nick,
It saddens me to learn that the party of Abraham Lincoln has fallen so far. It does America no good to have one strong party and an opposition that is irrelevant. I read a few days an Op-Ed from the New York Times about Roosevelt and how he was the great divider and how Obama, with the numbers he has, should simply ignore the minority. I think the article is wrong. For far too long, debate and reason have been suspended and the minority neglected. It is not just in America but everywhere. Is Obama right on Healthcare or is there something else others may shed light on before this affects millions of Americans? The issue of healthcare is an issue for all Americans. It is about time governance is about inclusion and reason. The Republican party with their extremist right-wing philosophy does no one good when they do not respect the Office of the man standing before them. It does no one good– Iraq is an example when reason is set aside for ideology. It also does no one any good when America has only one viable party.
I found Joe Wilson’s stunt grossly disrespectful. After all it is common courtesy to listen when somebody is giving an address. Now if you don’t like what you hear, then it is acceptable to leave the hall.
I don’t think heckling a head of state is acceptable in Congress. The President is neither a member of the house or senate. In the British House of Commons, the PM may be heckled by fellow MPs but this is because he himself is first a MP. But the Speaker can draw lines on this heckling though.
Heckling is fun to some people, even here in FV, maybe Wilson ‘just wanna have fun’, as Cindy Lauper loved to sing. I hope it’s not a mortal sin to do that in America.
It is never a sin. 1) He did it on the floor of the House where there is parliamentary immunity, 2) First Amendment!
JOE,
So what is our reaction when a South Korean parliament members slugged it out among themselves on the floor?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJVdkCBKCI
jcc,
The Korean tussle doe not speak well for the advancement of civility in Korea. This tendency to be uncivil has, I suppose, been around as long as man has been, and my perspective is we ought to aspire for better.
I observe the UK parliamentary debates when the PM addresses those stuffed shirt dudes; a lot of whoofing and gibing amongst the legislators. But there are rules, and they abide by them. It is one way, I suppose . . .
Joe
just a thought Joe… If members of congress mostly Democrats can give an standing obation and clap enthusiastically to the President to show their approval on issues he was talking on why can’t someone show his displeasure by saying “You Lied”.
Is the interruption of the speech by rising on their seats, making thunderous claps and make the some noise acceptable because you were in agreement with the speaker but if one would make a singular noise of displeasure is that reprehensible only because it in disagreement with the speaker?
What if Joe Wilson instead of saying “You Lied” said: “You are great Mr. President” perhaps nobody would claim that it was uncivil. So the speech becomes uncivil only because the speech was not the kind of speech we would like to hear.
BTW, I still have comment waiting moderation. Maybe Nick should take time and allow it to be posted.
Jcc,
I’ve opined at length in comments below.
The easy answer is that Congress evidently has rules that require guests be treated with consideration.
You make a conceptual argument that equates clapping with jeering. Clapping is an expression of affirmation and considered dignified. To object in Congress, convention is not to clap. These are the rules of this particular society. If you prefer the British catcalling style, that is fine. There are rules there, too.
Mr. Obama was an invited guest. When you have a guest to your home civility calls for treating those with whom you disagree with some measure of politeness because it is a public forum. As my mama used to say, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all.”
I don’t understand why this concept is so hard for you and Bert to grasp.
Joe
Joe,
Let us assume that there was truth in the statement “You Lied”, and your invited Speaker been lying to his host in front of other guests. Should the host pretend all is well so as not to embarass the Speaker and it is allright to tell him Okay you are doing great by clapping and cheering the Speaker? In effect we are comfortable with host being pawned at and avoid embarassing him though he has been lying! Are we not complicit in his lying then by cheering him?
From my standpoint, any member of congress is free to speak out his mind. If other membes were free to speak out their minds in approval of the Speaker by standing ovation, clapping and cheering, why can’t one speak out his disapproval, after all it is the affairs of the state that is involved here and anyone must not be hedged by convention of good manners.
Or are we only incensed by the “incivility” because the speech was not in favor of the speaker?. As I said, had Wilson spoke out in the same photo-frame the words, “You are great Mr. President”, probably it would be held as a “statesmanlike” demeanor but because his speech was in disagreement with the speaker, it was unacceptable then.
First Amendment, where art thou?
Jcc,
Sometimes the lie is in the mind of the beholder, and it would be a hyena kind of world if we all went around shouting “liar” every time we disagreed with someone. Furthermore, rules of Congress supersede first amendment rights in this case. Basically, though, we have different standards of civility; I shall keep mine and you are free to live by yours. There is no problem, as I would never attend a function where the host promotes chaos – intimidation and insult – as the correct social order.
Joe
bert, blackshama,
Dignity, have you no understanding of dignity? This was akin to the Iraqi reporter throwing a shoe at President Bush, it was that serious a gaffe. The first amendment does not advocate willy nilly running around being rude and insolent.
The jerk had the right; he will not be arrested. But he is symbolic of the distasteful animosity that runs riot in the halls of Congress.
Dignity, wherefore art thou?
Joe
Whose dignity, Joe? Maybe the jerk (your word) has something in his mind.
wilson was right all along and because of what he did, they are going back to the drawing board to make sure that wilson’s concern (which is shared by american majority) is addressed. “dignity” should not be confused with timidity. i didn’t see wilson’s action as “heckling”. he was stating a fact, an embarrassing fact on the part of the democratic leadership.
bencard,
from where i sit it is not a matter of right or wrong but a matter of whether or not Democrats can tolerate dissent, civil or otherwise. first amendment is not about allowing ideas we love to hear but also allowing ideas we hated so it can compete in the marketplace, let it fall or rise on its own merit/demerit.
Tell me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are.
http://www.alternet.org/story/142563/14_things_you_need_to_know_about_obama_heckler%2C_rep._joe_wilson/
For the strict constructionists like Bencard.
The beauty of Americas political tradition is that racists, pedophiles, plain idiots and other distasteful characters are allowed a platform..
Whitey still cannot accept that the coloreds are their equal. Even Lincoln did not accept that fact. It is hard wired in whitey’s consciousness.
The very first President who realized that the coolie race was their equal was Teddy Roosevelt. He realized this when the coolie race Japs defeated the whitey Russians.
He then made sure to build up the U.S. Pacific fleet since he knew the Japs first cousins were the Chinese.
Today the coolie nations are subsidizing whiteys lifestyle.
bert,
The dignity of American ideals, where opposing views are heard and respected, and argued on the basis of fact or principle. If the jerk has something in his mind, say it in the correct forum, don’t embarrass the President and the US. By the way, it ended up being a win for Obama as he, once again, showed his dignified calm in the face of the best effort to “show him up”.
bencard,
I fear you know no dignity, so I would not expect you to grasp the concept.
Joe
But, Joe, Obama was saying somwething in the US Congress, and Wilson answered back in the US Congress, it’s the correct forum, is it not? If Wilson’s accusation is wrong therefore Obama’s proposed program correct, should there be reason for Obama the president, or the USA, to be embarrassed? Surely it will be the American people who will judge whether whose dignity is involved here, not the democrats or the republicans. Sorry, just my simple 2-cents.
bert,
It is not the correct forum, traditionally, when Congress invites the President to speak. It is the correct forum in a floor speech. The people are speaking, through their representatives, and Mr. Wilson is likely to be given two choices: (1) apologize to the people, through an apology on the floor of Congress, or (2) be officially censured by the Congress. I don’t think Mr. Obama was all that embarrassed. I was, as a citizen, because I detest partisan politics that lack civility.
I think it is important to strive for a high road in all activities. Sometimes we succeed. Sometimes we fail. Mr. Wilson failed.
Joe
Bert, let me try it a different way.
You invite President Obama to your home to talk about US – Philippine relations. During the talk, the President makes a point and one of your neighbors, whom you invited to attend this prestigious talk, bristles and shouts “you lie”.
The whole house goes quiet.
How do you feel, having invited both the President and your neighbor? How do think the other guests feel?
Are you ready to condone this behavior in any forum where the President is invited to speak? If so, I would say you are an opponent of courtesy and civility, favoring open and rude shouting over considerate and dignified behavior. Speeches will be greeted with catcalls and derisive comments. Dignified forums will become riots of protesting voices, this view and that view shouted out to try to drown out the others.
There is a time and forum for debate, and a time and forum for respectful listening. Only a jerk would choose an inappropriate moment to exercise his granted freedom of speech, and insult those who invited the President, as well as the President himself.
Joe
Joe,
Wilson is a member of congress, the forum is inside congress, therefore he is an occupant of ‘the house’ and not an invited neighbor, am I wrong? Obama was an invited guest, I think you’re right there.
Some Americans said Obama lied, so where’s the dignity in that, if it’s true? Some Americans said Wilson has no manner, if true then Wilson is a jerk, as you said, and, I agree no dignity, so that, if Wilson has no dignity, does it affect the dignity of the president and the dignity of America? In the same manner, if Obama was lying, does it affect his dignity, or the dignity of America?
Sorry again, Joe, just questions from a simple mind. The American people will be the judge of this and not the democrats or the republicans. My rants.
bert,
You are right. The American people will figure it out.
My personal perspective is based on a belief that the US is spiraling downward into an unfortunate chasm where debate is devoid of civility. Partisan politics has become filled with venom, rather than the principle of public good. Wilson got an uptick of publicity and campaign money from his confrontation. So now he is leveraging that as his “modus operandi”. I view the whole episode with considerable dismay.
Joe
Guys,
Don’t get me all wrong. I am for civility in all form of discourse. But in one of my posts here at FV, I said that we cannot expect dignity and civility from a place of brigands, thieves and scoundrels. (referring of course to our own Congress). It turned out that we do not hold the exclusive distinction for that. It is a world-wide phenomenon. So “istidi” lang kayo diyan.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20070316/62104082.html
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-19281523_ITM
how about theTaipe parliament brawl
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTP21135920070508
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/88688/parliament_brawl/
Hey Nick,
There are four ways to spend money.
1. spend your own money to yourself
2. ….. (you know it)
3. ….. (youknow it too)
4. spend someone else’s money to someone else.
The first is simple. You will try to get the best quality/service for yourself for every cent of your own money. (cause you know how hard it is to earn a dime)
The last (No. 4) is simple too. Only if you know and understand the No. 2 and 3. (cause you know how easy it is to collect and how easy for it to be spent)
Now, with the illegal immigrants. There has been a proposed amendment on the bill that republicans want but never given a chance. The bill never defined who will legally avail the health care. Well, of course Americans! Stupid me! However, no clause defining how to well screen ‘Americans’. I wonder why Obama never wanted the ammendment.
The Death Panel: No such explicit word but the Health Care bill has section stating that the government may advise when to pull the plug on grandma(end -of-life counseling section).
No part in the constitution that Federal Govt is mandated to act on health care of its citizens. The more government enter unto such programs, the burden to the people is getting worst. Remember that private businesses create wealth but what government know is to spend it lavishly. Getting more govt projects means trillions of deficits which in turn lot of taxes among the people. Where will you go? The whole concept of a govt sponsored health care is insane. It is just about dragging the whole nation into the abyss of debt while those beaurucrats enjoy spending the peoples taxes.
Joe Wilson have done the right thing. Yelling the truth that OBAMA is a BIG LIAR. What do you want, an angelic crook or truth teller?
the fact.. if you don’t believe me, then believe a Pulitzer Prize winning site…
No, Redd, Ja_g is not an idiot. He is the most endowed, intellectually and in pundity here at FV.
When the good Lord distributed talents and wisdom in this wide world, ony JA_G was awake…
Sir, JA_G, I bow and salute your brilliance!!!
No part of the U.S. constitution allows the U.S. government to allow the printing of money not backed up by precious metals.
No part of the Constitution allows the government the power to guarantee private debt incurred by the private banks…
Hey Big Redd why did W. and Paulson not simply let Bear Stearns, Citi, AIG and BoA simply go bust? You and other taxpayers around the world are subsidizing that $13 trillion backed federal guarantee together with other government around the world.
Since when did the Constitution allow the government to impose payroll taxes for social security?
How do you prevent illegals from accessing health care when they use fake credentials? Should you now require a from of ID system issued by the Central government that will keep one’s blood type, fingerprints and DNA on record to prove identities. Should the central government now create a new bureaucracy to monitor who are legal and illegal in the U.S.?
There are huge numbers of legal permanent residents in the U.S.
At the present time it is more the private insurers who have the veto power on the type of treatment one gets. The profit picture overrides most everything else. Who needs death panels???
Fact checking the idea of ‘death panels.’
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aez5aG1F28.Q
J_ag,
As a confirmed Whitey (God gave me no other skin), I do NOT take exception to your assessments . . . and, as you note below, the elasticity between left and right is what often holds the ship afloat.
I also agree Nonoy needs to act tough, act sharp, go for the jugular and other parts of the Philippine political anatomy.
Joe
Wilson’s act is still unprofessional and undignified. At least he could’ve heckled with Jeckle (the British accented one?) to provide some sense of class. haha.
Politicians behave like that…not a surprise.
Throwing shoes at Bush Jr. is ok for Filipinos but heckling Obama while addressing the US Congress is not?
In the Philippines something is wrong only if they like the victim.
ahahaha.. excellent catch!
Is this guy Joe a citizen of a country whose country is presently occupied by a foreign power?
Is this guy Joe a citizen whose country has been ripped apart by a foreign power under the false pretense of avenging 9/11.
When the students of the Philippines threw a paper mache ‘buwaya’ at then President FM his guards responded with bullets..
Congress is the place for civil discourse. The more rambunctious free press in the U.S. is can sometimes degenerate into brutal discourse. More so with the new forms of media..
Take your pick on the type of discourse one wishes to have.. The Republican side today has degenerated to vile form of discourse.
During the 60′s and 70′s it was the extreme “left” that dominated the lefty discourse. The “left” has never quite recovered from that fiasco..
Now it is the turn of the extreme right. I am glad that the neo-nazi’s are making a comeback in the U.S. Keynes was absolutely right about economic downturns and the need for the government to maintain social stability. Once the social institutions fail the crazies take over…
The U.S. has to finally see its ugly side. Electing a colored man to the Presidency is just the beginning for whitey to confront his demons..
Post industrial societies have no more need for unskilled unschooled and unlettered individuals. Sarah Palin, Joe the Plumber and Bencard are relics of a bygone time in the U.S.
Palin saw an out from her existence in a state that depends on hunting and fishing and a state subsidy from oil. She can make more money in outlandish punditry filling the need in a market starved for content. Look at Glenn Beck.. 24/7 media desperately needs content.
I would advise Noynoy to take heed. Get controversial.. Itong I am good and she is evil will not sell. The public love a sabong.. Get the divas of sabong in AbS-CBN to teach you. Huwag si Kris. Sina Korina, Ces at Karen… Get a spokeswoman from one of them… Masarap sa mata at tenga.
Hey Everyone,
I dont even care at the moment discussing about Filipinos.
Filipos are USA puppets technically and they are very proud being like that. I mean no offense but the Philipine Government is a YESYESYES toy to Granny Sammy.
Hi, Redd!
Argue with Nick, or Joe, or J_ag, I think you’re making sense with them.
But lay off us, this is not about Filipino against the Americans.
Bert,
Sorry. Yes it is not Filipino against American.
It is your President I am talking about.
Bert,
The “jerk” episode continues, if you are following it. He has refused to apologize to the House of Representatives so the Democrats will vote to admonish him. He is puffing his feathers like a peacock so that his constituents, who like such macho displays, will send more money for his re-election campaign. Meanwhile, his opponent is also hauling in big money for his own campaign because there are a good many people who find Mr. Wilson’s behavior offensive.
I had the additional thought, too, regarding your first comment that Mr. Wilson has the right of free speech. Although America is a nation of freedoms, it is also a nation of laws, the laws being the means whereby citizens of differing backgrounds, customs and beliefs find a common rule book for living harmoniously together. Laws, by their nature, constrain freedom; we are not free to do anything we wish, but have a responsibility to respect the well-being of the greater community. Evidently, Mr. Wilson violated a rule of the House by making his outburst. So he did not have the right of free speech in that particular forum; he had the responsibility to respect the community. He failed in his responsibility.
He remains a jerk in my book, and I hope the Republicans lose another congressional seat as a result. At some point, they have to recognize that they are pounding themselves on the head with a ball peen hammer when they advocate a narrow ideology or posture for personal gain over public good. (extremist dems, too)
The Philippine electorate would be wise to similarly punish officials seeking re-election if they are negligent at working for the public good.
Joe
Yes, indeed, Joe.
Reading from your writings here in FV, I sincerely believe you are an American first, and a democrat second, like any patriotic citizen should be.
Still, you seems to be noticing only the bad manners of Wilson when in fact some Americans think he’s telling the truth when he shouted “You lied!”. I’ve never been to America so innocent of American culture that’s why I am quite baffled by your noticing only accusations of bad manners while disregarding accusations of lying.
As to your hope that the “Republican lose…”, I guess the American people will be the one to decide on that, not the Democrats, or the Republicans.
Oh, the Philippine electorate is not known for voting wisely although I’m hoping we’ll be wiser this coming 2010 election.
Bert,
Why thank you for correctly aligning my allegiances. I would only clarify that being Filipino, to the extent a non-citizen can be one, stands on a par with being American. This is my country, too, bencard’s protestations notwithstanding.
If you read carefully, you will see that I have also criticized democrats for partisan behavior. It is both, no doubt.
And I’m not really democrat. I’m a free thinker and my thinking frequently aligns with democrats. My work background is corporate, so I hold some of the perspectives of free market republicans.
Regards,
Joe