Last weekend Leslie Bassett, the US Embassy’s charge d’affaires, met with the top officials of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF). The meeting raises several questions.
Did the American Embassy ask the Arroyo administration for permission to meet with the MILF leadership?
The Department of Foreign Affairs and Malacañang have not said anything. Military commanders in the area did not know that a meeting would take place.
Lt. Gen. Raymundo Ferrer, chief of the Eastern Mindanao Command, said the Americans simply requested him to provide security for their “routine familiarization visit.”
Lt. Col. Jonathan Ponce, spokesman for the Sixth Infantry Division that provided escorts for the Americans, was also clueless.
“We learned afterward from intelligence reports about the meeting. We learned that they discussed development projects and probably also the peace process.”
Now I don’t know about you but I think the US Embassy and, for that matter, all embassies, have an obligation to ask the host government for permission before sitting down with secessionists.
If the meeting was secret and held without the Arroyo administration’s permission, then the US Embassy not only breached diplomatic protocol—it also committed a subversive act.
Who initiated the meeting?
It’s not clear. The MILF was not forthcoming and the US Embassy downplayed it.
“Ms. Bassett met with various leaders and officials in Cotabato as part of a routine familiarization visit.”
What did the Americans and the secessionists discuss during their “warm and forthright” two-hour meeting?
Neither party provided details, but general statements coming from the US Embassy and the MILF make one wonder if indeed the US is taking the side of the secessionists.
The MILF web site posted Bassett’s statement and the profuse response of the MILF chieftain.
“The United States government greatly respects and supports the people’s struggle and aspiration to achieve peace in the region. Helping attain and sustain peace, security and development in Mindanao is a priority concern of our government,” said Bassett.
MILF chief Haji Murad responded, “We convey the utmost gratitude and felicitations of the MILF and the Bangsamoro people to the United States of America and His Excellency President Barack Obama for the unfaltering commitment to support the peace process and the peaceful conflict resolution between the government and MILF.”
Now, would Murad feel that way if he didn’t believe that Bassett’s statement is a message of support for the MILF’s goal of eventually seceding from the Republic?
The MILF is so confident of US support the vice chairman for MILF political affairs appealed for US intervention.
“The US government knows very well the background of the conflict both historically and legally, and we believe that the US can greatly help toward the peaceful resolution of the conflict,” said Ghazali Jaafar.
Jaafar’s statement seems innocuous enough until one sees where it’s coming from.
The MILF web site says, “Murad [the MILF chieftain] recalled that our Bangsamoro forefathers officially asked the United Sates as early as 1921 and followed up in 1924 and in 1935 to separate Bangsamoro homeland from the Filipinos of Luzon and Visayas once independence will be granted to the latter. The Moros wanted to remain under US rule rather than being annexed to the Philippine Republic.”
Is the US sleeping with the enemy?
Yes, but the US is not the only one in bed with the MILF.
Last year the Supreme Court had to step in to prevent the Arroyo administration from giving away Philippine territory to the MILF.
Popularity: 4% [?]
MB, the Master never needs to ask permission from his servant.
We have a good enough “state” that borders on dysfunctional status.
Why bring up this so called slight to national sovereignty?
First thing that Pinoys must accept that they are not masters in their own home.
It makes the issue of solving problems much easier.
Yeah, looks to me like the US is doing the Philippine government’s job for them.
Paragraphs in the 1987 Constitution disallow Ancestral-Domain/Juridical Entity. In June-2010, GMA will leave Malacanang. In 2010 or 2011, the Philippine Constitution will be re-written. The next Malacanang-resident along with honorable members of the constitutional convention can tailor the next Constitution to have paragraphs supportive of Ancestral Domain – Juridical Entity to make the issue of solving problems much easier to accomodate peace-loving separatists.
o, Philippines! Quo Vadis?
…but I do not think that such paragraphs will get added.
Separatism and partitioning will not be accepted by Filipinos. Federalism, maybe… partitioning, no.
The American government will dance with the Devil, if it promotes
its interest. They are talking with the Taliban now. Next maybe, they
will talk to the Al Queda. The meeting may be good for them. But, it
works against the interest of the Philippine government. It legitimizes a Terrorist group, who did kidnapping and murder. They
created Bin Laden themselves. In their effort to remove the Soviets
in Afghanistan. The Muhjajedins became the Taliban and the Al Queda.
Shocks! nagbabasa na ba si Hayden Toro ngayon?
There are no real enemy. Saddam Hussein was once an American baby and so is Ossama, Marcos, etc.
Its all temporary alliance.
If it works for you. You deal with the Devil!
Noriega of Panama, Ayatolah Komenei of Iran, Marcos of the
Philippines, Suharto of Indonesia, the Generals of Pakistan,
Saddam Hussein of Iraq, etc…to name a few.
Shocks! nagbabasa na ba si Hayden Toro ngayon?
But mali! Ayatollah Khomenie and the Iranian people battled against the dictatorial Shah Pahlavi of Iran who was a PUPPET of America.
Hyden,
it was the Shah of Iran not the Ayatollah that the US was friends with. The Ayatollah was leader when the American Embassy in Iran was taken hostage.
Ayatolah KHomenei was exiled in France, and was in touch with
the American CIA. Both the France and the American were supporting him in the hope of putting a Pro Western Iranian Regime. The Shah of Iran was becoming unpopular already.
The Ayatolah Komenei deceived the West. Like the Muhjahedin of
Afghanistan deceived the Americans. The Americans gave “Stinger
Missiles” to shot down Soviet Hind Helicopters. This made a
difference in defeating the Soviets. Then, they turned against
the Americans culminating in the Twin Tower Bombing of the
World Trade Center. WE SHOULD CLARIFY OUR THINKING TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEX SITUATION OF THE WORLD!
Remember the Iran-Contra Hearings in the U.S. Senate during the term of Pres. Reagan? Lt. Col. Oliver North of the White House went to Iran to make a deal to release the U.S. hostages kept in Iran. He proposed selling arms to Iran (the enemy),for release of the U.S. hostages. Then, use the money to fund the Contra Pro-U.S. fighters in Nicaragua, South America. The deal did not push thru, and was investigated in the U.S. Congress. This is how enemies deal behind the fightings
and war. The Iranians used deceit. Same as Saddam Hussein used deceit in making Kuwait finance its Arms
build up.
There are no real enemy. Saddam Hussein was once an American baby and so is Ossama, Marcos, etc.
Its all temporary alliance.
Yeah.
A government following a rule of betrayal, double-dealings and two-facedness.
Iran is only one of many countries who epitomizes being freed from U.S. influence. I wouldn’t blame Iranian president Ahmadinejad if he names the U.S. as being the seat of Satan. Satan being the government.
Not to offend U.S. citizens.
In politics, there are no permanent friends – only permanent interests.
Edward,
No offense taken. It is rather in the same category as when a child blurts out something funny or an insane person babbles nonsensically. No harm done. After all, if someone’s intellectual grounding is soft, he comes up with statements like that. Many praised Hitler, too, because he broke free from the yoke of those bastard Jews and Europeans and people of color.
Joe
@ BongV
that’s why I always prefer the old definition of politics
The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.
rather than the modern definition in the idiom play politics
play politics.
a. to engage in political intrigue, take advantage of a political situation or issue, resort to partisan politics, etc.; exploit a political system or political relationships.
b. to deal with people in an opportunistic, manipulative, or devious way, as for job advancement.
@Joe
Point taken.
Manuel Buencamino,
You call us ENEMY? Others here call us Devil? But who has been behaving as so?
I repeat my contention, if non-Muslims so much hate to become minority under BJE (as what you are apprehensive of most,) then why you keep on insisting the Bangsamoro to remain always as so under the Philippine state which is just a recent crap of colonial manipulation?
Eat that double standard of yours all yourself!
danilo,
you support muslim majority provinces to secede? if this does happen, can the muslim state support itself, be autonomous?
if not, who will support it?
if it has seceded, it is already beyond autonomous – it is already independent and is a state with sovereignty over its territory. can it support itself? with political will (which it has demonstrated through its sustained resistance against the GRP). fueled by revenue from the oil, mineral, and natural gas resources in its territory – the Muslim state can follow a more prosperous path of Muslim states like Brunei and transform Marawi into a Dar-Es-Salaam – without being hobbled by the GRPs wishy washiness.
it has oil, mineral and natural gas?
saan doon?
and, if there are (oil, mineral nat gas…), why are they being extracted now?
GabbyD:
http://www.doe.gov.ph/ER/ngreports.htm
***
Beyond 2015, a 2,000 MW gas-fired power generating capacity expansion is programmed for Mindanao, possibly in Zamboanga (PEP, 1996). Possible gas discoveries in Sulu Sea are being eyed for this expansion.
***
In the Cotabato Basin and Agusan-Davao Basin in Mindanao, extensive geophysical exploration activities are being carried out by two consortia for eventual identification of drillable targets. Natural gas is a major target for these activities. – Specifically, Liguasan Marsh – MILF territory.
who’s gonna pay for these investments? who will manage?
Danilo,
If that Bangsamoro crap of yours is really what ALL muslims want then how come millions of muslims are in Luzon and the Visayas doing business, making a living instead of fighting alongside the MILF?
Filipino muslims are oppressed because their political leaders still act like sultans. If Manila has any fault at all it is for playing along with muslim sultans aka political warlords. If you want life to improve in muslim Mindanao start with your political leaders.
If the MILF is for real and it has the welfare of common muslims at heart, how come it tolerates crooked, oppressive muslim politician/warlords? The MILF has 12,000 armed combatants, it can’t even deal with the Ampatuans of ARMM?
“If that Bangsamoro crap of yours is really what ALL muslims want then how come millions of muslims are in Luzon and the Visayas doing business, making a living instead of fighting alongside the MILF?”
MB, I don’t know what fancy Latin name logicians have for that assertion but that certainly sounds like a fallacy. A Muslim in Manila does not necessarily mean he/she is not rooting, sympathizing or dreaming for a Bangsamoro state. Like an OFW dreaming for a truly sovereign Philippines with a government that truly reflects the will and aspirations of the people. A country with enough economic, educational and social opportunities so he/she could rejoin his/her family and community.
On a more prosaic note, people react in different ways to the same situation. Some flee to a safer, more prosperous place; others fight and struggle against what they perceive as the root of the problem; others pretend there is no problem; still others are coopted and become part of the problem.
Religion has nothing to do with it.I dont care what religion you belong to. I have no agendas to promote;except tell the
truth.
It is as it had happened!
Let there be a Bangsamoro Republic under US rule.
That ought to be the best of all possible worlds.
Primer,
Ouch.
You are herein nominated for the Nobel Prize, best delivered pie-in-the-face for 2009.
Joe
Primer:
If this happens – you are the man!
LoL
Do you know what started the whole Bangsamoro Conflict? It was when the Treaty of Paris included their land in the Philippines. Then the U.S. accepted it even though it wasn’t on Spanish rule. So they basically stole it.
Now U.S. influence on local politics is merely to play both sides against each other. Why are their U.S. soldiers fighting alongside our army (aka VFA)? To protect “investment”. Then why are they sending U.S. diplomats? To look good to the Bangsamoro People.
They’re probably aiming for your suggestion to happen.
Yes, Primer, second best only to Afghanistan.
Dismaying development. Good questions.
Joe
“If the MILF is for real and it has the welfare of common muslims at heart, how come it tolerates crooked, oppressive muslim politician/warlords? The MILF has 12,000 armed combatants, it can’t even deal with the Ampatuans of ARMM?”
what a crappy question!
It’s simple Buencamino, the Ampatuans and the ARMM is not the Government of the Republic of the Philippines; they are just vassals of the government of the Republic of the Philippines that help it exploit their own people here like other non-Muslim vassals there who exploits ordinary Filipinos.
And so, the MILF needs not to talk to the Ampatuans with regards to the welfare of the Moro people because the Ampatuans and their likes would choose instead to retain their status quo as they make feast over the exploitation of the Moro people here as tolerated by the Philippine government.
By lumping different things together, Seems you’re with Erap whom you once dubbed as “narrow-minded” president!
Danilo,
It’s simple Ignacio, the MILF’s agenda is not necessarily what muslim Filipinos want. That’s why millions of muslims are in Luzon and the Visayas doing business and making a living instead of fighting alongside the MILF.
Beuncamino,
Those Muslims coming there in Luzon and Visayas who got their easy way for a living are but just small percent of the Moro population left here who have been living under deplorable conditions in evacuations centers every time the government declares an all-out-war. Those people are nothing but them who made easy living all by themselves who, say, make business there in Luzon and Visayas in the same way as non-Muslims there in Luzon and Visayas make “business” here at the same time. There is no relation whether they stay there for good because they denounce what the MILF advocates for i.e. return of the Moro people’s rights and good governance.
Danilo,
Millions of moros in luzon and visayas is not a small percent of the Moro Population left there.
“There is no relation whether they stay there for good because they denounce what the MILF advocates for i.e. return of the Moro people’s rights and good governance.”
And so you agree that a large number of Moros, millions, do not only disagree withe MILF advocacy, they even denounce it. Now I’m sure that not all Moros remaining there are advocates of the MILF cause. At the end of the day, I’m sure facts will show that most Moros see the MILF as a pain in the butt.
Millions? really – cite the source of your statistics!
It’s simple Buencamino, the Ampatuans and the ARMM is not the Government of the Republic of the Philippines; they are just vassals of the government of the Republic of the Philippines that help it exploit their own people here like other non-Muslim vassals there who exploits ordinary Filipinos.
I think so too.
That’s why the oppressed muslims were forced to take arms. The ARMM use the backing of the whole Philippines to ally themselves with a whole country. Now the Bangsamoro want to separate themselves totally with the Philippines since they view the whole Philippines as tolerant to the land-grabber-populated government.
It is strange that Muslim countries who are in conflict
are fighting for lands. Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Pakistani-Indian conflict. Philippine conflict. The
Israelis gave up their Gaza Territory, a few years back
to the Palestinians. What did they do with the land?
Used it as a launching pads for their Rockets hitting
Israel. People who have mindset of conflicts, will always find ways to build up conflicts. We have to learn
to live in Peace. Or natural calamities will drown us
all. Like the lost civilization of Atlantis. People
in that civilization lost their land into the Atlantic
Ocean. The continent is now resting in the Atlantic Ocean for many centuries.
Danilo Ignacio and Edward:
Exactly.
Additionally, these same vassals hold the keys to dagdag-bawas.
ARMMs’ vote returns are usually the last to be counted for good reason. The ARMM electoral results close the gap between the “anointed” and the “unanointed ones”. An incumbent’s senatorial candidate with a poor showing in NCR can be offset by votes from the ARMM.
As long as the “war” against the “enemy” continues, the ballot boxes will be stuffed with completely filled voters forms (despite the wholesale physical absence of voters personally submitting their votes).
It works for nearly everyone – except the people. The AFP generals make their respective cuts from purchases and supplies – (Exhibit 1 – AFP Comptroller General Garcia is just the tip of the ice berg). The MILF old guards have job security. Malacañang gets foreign assistance and funds by raising the JI/AQ bogeyman. The vassals get their cut from Malacañang. The AFP/MILF old guards/Malacañang/Congress/Geopolitical Power gets what they want – except the people, who are made to shoot each other while their leaders play golf.
Check those Philvocs. There is a fault near Sulu Sea.
Part of tectonic plates. There is also a deep trench in
Surigao. The Mindanao area could easily go under the
ocean with an erratic movement of these tectonic plates.
We have a choice. A choice for peace, and for life. Or
a choice to be forgotten in history, resting under the
ocean.
To your information. There were two great civilizations
not recorded in history that were on this Planet Earth.
One was Atlantis civilization. The other was Lemurian
civilization. The civilizations reached their heights with their technologies as we have reached now. But, because of conflicts. All were lost in a matter of minutes. Not a trace now, excepts those great stoneworks like the Pyramids of Egypt and the Temples in South America. You can see a relics also in a temple in Cambodia.
WHY YOU KILL ZAID?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oh1DDFx6Kk
Manuel Buencamino,
Reread my post, do not assign words to my mouth please.
Danilo, don’t people vote for the ARMM governor?
FreeSince09,
They are instead “voted” in the name of the people. It’s very easy to do that with the Philippines election system, and the electioneers’ greed or fear. You know what I mean.
The MILF does not want elections. The MILF worries that elections will see more baranggays want to leave the Bangsamoro which is run only for the benefit of old datus or warlords. The MILF is disrespectful of women and of the young. Democracy is an alien concept to the MILF and its leaders (at the top and the local warlords) do not want to give women and the younger generation a say in how they are governed. The old “..what do we have the guns for!!!” mentality. “Trust us, we will protect you”, they say.
And here is an alien concept — freedom of religion.
There’s always the Philippine elections where you choose between a thief and another thief.
Speaking of disrespect for women and children – would you rather that they have their women sell their flesh in Pegasus and Air Force One or Maalikaya, while the children are sold for kilo in the streets of Morayta?
Religion – I don’t think they want a theocracy similar to the three centuries of Catholicism over the indios.
BongV
do you support secession?
As has been pointed out – Spain preposterously turned over territories where it did not exercise sovereignty, in the Treaty of Paris.
How can it secede when it never was a part of the entire rigamarole?
The sad thing is that one indiscriminately equates mistakenly those warlords who claim datuship in themselves with Moro leaders who aim for some good changes in the lives of ordinary Moros. While the former are seen collaborating as vassals of the government who exploit their own people, the later is seen either in parliamentary engagements or armed struggles aiming to liberate the Moro people from the clutches of exploitation and oppression entailed by the policy of the government.
True, democracy is the rule of the many who is still considerate of the minority and not the dictatorship of the majority, or those few who count themselves as so.
“the MILF has 12,000 armed combatants, it can’t even deal with the Ampatuans of ARMM?”
Manuel Buencamino,
If the MILF can stand face to face with the Armed Forces of the Republic of the Philippines, the more it can with them who just maintains a very small armed escorts?
What a military analysis is yours!
Danilo,
“If the MILF can stand face to face with the Armed Forces of the Republic of the Philippines, the more it can with them who just maintains a very small armed escorts?”
So why don’t they?
You yourself said in your response to Free that their is no democracy under those warlords.
“They are instead “voted” in the name of the people. It’s very easy to do that with the Philippines election system, and the electioneers’ greed or fear. You know what I mean.”
Why does not the MILF liberate moros from warlords?
Maybe the MILF is not working in behalf of the moros. Maybe they are working for the Malaysians, Al Qaeda, and JI.
Or it is in the interest of the oldies in the MILF and their counterparts in the AFP for the war to continue – otherwise, how will the General Garcias of the world make their living.
“Maybe the MILF is not working in behalf of the moros. Maybe they are working for the Malaysians, Al Qaeda, and JI.”
From what moral ground are you saying that? Have you mustered the required courage of real journalists to go on the ground and ascertain the real nature of things there? Were you been like Rigoberto Tiglao whose researches among Moro fronts did not make appeal on Estrada and so Estrada was immediately incarcerated of corruption few months after he declared war in 2000? I don’t know what is the relation of his corruption with his war. But Tiglao’s study had gave Erap some warning insights before hand not to do such. Have you been like anybody else in the investigative journalism who courageously betrayed every danger on the ground just to get the balance sides of the issue?
Be not like those who while only sitting somewhere there just rely on the spurious feeds of their “unimpeachable sources” of information, nibble such piece of information all by himself, cap it with his own prejudice at the back of his head and then write it on papers or upload it online. That is irresponsible brand of journalism as it only amounts to mere “intrigue-mongering, gossip-peddling or hearsay-vending.” Why not go down the ground and get the first-hand account of any incident you write about here? With this attitude, anyone can be a tragic disgrace to the noble writing profession, particularly of investigative journalism.
Danilo,
The MILF cannot stand face to face with the AFP. They always run to the International Monitoring Group when the AFP lainches an offensive.
When the AFP goes after savages like Commander Bravo et al the MILF says they are renegades please don’t go after us.
We only have to look back a few years when the AFP ssuccessfully took over Camp Abubakar and other MILF camps to prove your contention wrong and misleading.
Ngayon kung talagang popular ang MILF bakit hindi sila dinadagsa ng volunteers? Bakit mas madaming moro ang umaalis sa ARMM kesa sa lumalaban for the goals of the MILF?
Paki [aliwanag nga pls.
diko kaya ang level ng kabadingang usapan Buencamino, sorry can’t go up with your level.
Danilo,
Naintindihan ko na ang proganda di kaya ang katotohanan.
I repeat – The MILF cannot stand face to face with the AFP. Nagtatago sila sa saya ng IMG.
Kaya pala ang sagot mo ay ” diko kaya ang level ng kabadingang usapan Buencamino, sorry can’t go up with your level.”
Buti pa yun suki ko sa dibidi, nakikita niya ang ginagawang gulong walang patutunguan ng MILF
That’s because the AFP has the numerical and logistical superiority. If weapons from Muslim countries like Pakistan are allowed to flow to the MILF just like weapons from Western countries flow to the GRP. And if mujahideen from Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen were allowed into the Philippines like the Western “advisers” of the GRP – - it will be one big party – a reunion of sorts. :)
There’s a reason why the word renegade was placed in the dictionary.
Did taking over Camp AbuBakr decrease the desire for independence from the artificial Philippine state – no it did not.
What makes you think hindi sila dinadagsa ng volunteers, take out the AFP from the area – you’ll see the volunteers swelling. Quantify your “mas madami”- as of last count mas madami pa rin ang moro sa ARMM.
“That’s because the AFP has the numerical and logistical superiority. If weapons from Muslim countries like Pakistan are allowed to flow to the MILF just like weapons from Western countries flow to the GRP. And if mujahideen from Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen were allowed into the Philippines like the Western “advisers” of the GRP – – it will be one big party – a reunion of sorts. :)”
O di aminado kang talo nga ang MIL!
“There’s a reason why the word renegade was placed in the dictionary.”
And the reason is for the MILF to learn what the word means,
“Did taking over Camp AbuBakr decrease the desire for independence from the artificial Philippine state – no it did not.”
Sure it did. It’s hard to to desire anything when you are shitting all over yourself.
?What makes you think hindi sila dinadagsa ng volunteers,” Eh lasi ang dinadagsa nila ay yun mga malls dito
“take out the AFP from the area – you’ll see the volunteers swelling”
Ah e kung wala na ang AFP bakut pa mangangailangan ng volunteers ang MILF?
.”Quantify your “mas madami”- as of last count mas madami pa rin ang moro sa ARMM.”
Quantify your last count
As pointed out by Mindanews’ Patricio Diaz in http://www.mindanews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7082&Itemid=92
“I repeat – The MILF cannot stand face to face with the AFP. Nagtatago sila sa saya ng IMG.” Manuel Buencamino
Hehehe, this is too a childlike, let alone childish, argument. You see if MILF troops are that way then you can never hear about MILF forces clash with AFP troops since the very beginning. If you can only see military casualties on the ground, perhaps you can have some time to think of not sending your kin or friends here. But Military generals are too stealthy, let alone cowardly, to hide military casualties, and instead inflate reports of casualties of the other side with unfettered sensationalism in the media.
Nope, we do not make feast over the deaths from either side for lives are premium, including civilians who are often relegated as collateral damages. You see, thanks to the presence of the IMT until last year, whose stay was bilaterally agreed upon both by the GRP-MILF peace panels since, because aside from having prevented the escalation of any armed confrontations between the army and MILF that occasionally ensue on the ground and thereby had essentially prevented further lost of lives, it had also lessened to the greatest extent the statistical record of conflicts that had taken place in the past. For instance, it is reported that before the first batch of IMT arrived in 2004, there were 698 armed clashes recorded. Eventually this dropped to 15 (2004), 10 (2005), 33 (2006) and just 7 incidents in 2007. And this is worth celebrating indeed!
As such, the IMT presence was not here for MILF’s exploit and favor. Take note that it was GMA who lobbied on the Malaysian president and sought to have Malaysian government intervene in the GRP-MILF peace talks as the facilitator. But when the GRP was not complying anymore with those terms of references which provided for the facilitation of Malaysian government of the peace-making i.e. peace talks and the stay of the IMT it lead for peacekeeping, then Malaysia left for good. You see, the presence of neutral entities is necessary so that both the military and the Moro fronts comply with the rules on the ground.
“Buti pa yun suki ko sa dibidi, nakikita niya ang ginagawang gulong walang patutunguan ng MILF.” – Manuel Buencamino
You see, if anyone who hates the age-old conflict in Mindanao more than anybody else, it’s the Moro people themselves and the MILF in particular. If your observation is keen enough, war is brought instead here in Mindanao since Spanish times to the present and never shipped there in Manila or anywhere in Luzon and Visayas. It’s the military whose recruits mostly hail from there who are conscripted and thrown here in Mindanao to defend the madness of war-freak legislators, cabinet and president that their own sons are nowhere here joining their battle!
I think you should have asked further that kababayan of mine why he is pushed to the wall selling dibidi there instead of staying here perhaps to enjoy a supposed opportunity to tend farm had it not been for war or, say, benefit from employment and other livelihood opportunities that conflict-affected areas of Mindanao is supposed to have on the other side as I should also ask the same to somebody here hailing from as far as Caloocan there selling cooking utensils. And I tell you, many of my kababayans not only go there at Luzon and Visayas to take a flight from the deplorable plight entailed by the age-old war in Mindanao. They even go as far as abroad. DFA offices are flanked every day by young girls with often doctored papers especially birth certificates seeking for employment abroad because their war-torn communities have nothing to offer for their families’ everyday living. And they are not supposed to be there in that situation. Ask why? It’s not because of the MILF; it’s because of the exploitative policies of the national government peddled locally by corrupt traditional politicians against their own people. As such, one here is left with two options: either to join the war or withdraw and take flight wherever.
If these billions of pesos spent in Mindanao war since those previous years were spent instead in the rehabilitation and development of the Moro people, perhaps that dibidi vendor can help the government convince the MILF and other Moro fronts to lay down their arms.
“O di aminado kang talo nga ang MIL!” -Manuel Buencamino,
Judging who’s the winner in war is not just that your easy way. That is too kindergarten system of measurement. The fact that America entertains the MILF by sending emissaries to MILF enclaves for how many times; the fact that it can railroad, let alone disregard, Philippines’ protocol and diplomatic process; and, the tragic fact that the Philippines can not check on this is something suspicious.
Like what I said to my military classmates in peace studies here, they are very lucky because superpowers have not sided with nationalist of secessionist movements in Mindanao. Because had it been that case, then the one who shall be put into pitiful situation is the military because they shall fight against forces with military capability equivalent to superpowers’ might.
And now, the national government is gradually loosing the moral ascendancy over its own people and the superpowers. Now let’s wait for the next trend in the other bend.
Danilo, why don’t the MILF just take control or police the elections? I thnk they have popular support for that.
FreeSince,
It’s impossible for them to do that. Not that they can’t do that but they will not do that. It’s that, such stuffs are tasks of the government and they believe that they are neither partisan to the government nor to any unit of it, even the Office of the Muslim Affairs. Simply, the MILF knows the rule. But the MILF does not endorse any candidate nor prevent the Moro people choosing their leaders in the government, though they may vote wrong persons in the end, or though crooks are usually voted in people’s name.
We remember the last senatorial election where opposition candidates got zero votes in the ARMM. Or at one time, a friend of mine went home to vote only to be surprised that the election in that municipality was held a day before the election! We remember Musa Dimasidsing well. And surprisingly there has been no follow – up punitive actions that the government was supposed to do. Now is this the kind of system that you want to impose continuously upon the Moro people?
But as unique entities, the MILF and the GRP can cooperate each other, say, in interdicting criminal elements as they signed in the May 2002 Joint Communiqué. Yet though the GRP peace panel signed said document, the military can not comply with it since, as it said, it may preempt military operations when it coordinates with the MILF.
It’s that the observation in the past or even today usually reveals that, in the context of declared cessation of hostilities, an orchestrated scenario is regularly contrived whereby a hired armed group steals a kidnap victim, say, in Cotabato City, in the midst of tight security with creations of different task forces, thence dramatically run and withdraw toward MILF lairs. Armed confrontation eventually ensues between the military and MILF forces – NOT KIDNAPPERS so that after sometime, the military is bold enough to declare MILF casualties – again, NOT KIDNAPPERS.
And how many times that journalists reveal these KFRs are just creations of military psywar experts to derail the peace process then attribute it afterwards to the MILF? Like those previous days, running after criminal elements becomes the “called-for military strategy” to attack the MILF in the context of existing ceasefire agreement. And local trapos usually find wide and lavish exploits of themselves for this purpose. The ARMM cannot ask the government to stop the war, let alone respond to its relief and rehab mandate, simply because it has the same mind with the government.
Danilo,
I know that the MILF will not do the government’s work. But is not the MILF concerned about warlord’s oppressing Moro’s? Are they just going to standby and watch as their fellow moros suffer at the hands of warlords?
One of the more dangerous Islamic terrorist organization in the Philippines is the Rajah Sulaiman movement. Its membership consists of Filipino Christians who have converted to Islam, trained, financed and governed by Abu Sayyaf and Jemaah Islamiah.
And the MILF has too many uncontrolled commanders who do kidnapping and looting.
There is no way that the next Philippine constitution will have paragraphs that will recognize partitioning.
MCB:
The biggest warlords are the AFP generals who need a war to get more promotions for their proteges – not to mention the kickback from purchases of more ammo and other supplies.
BongV
“MCB:
The biggest warlords are the AFP generals who need a war to get more promotions for their proteges – not to mention the kickback from purchases of more ammo and other supplies.”
I agree. And the MILF is also doing ot for donations from abroad. So both are enavlers both are parasites that live off each other.
Having said that, the question is should the ROP allow secession?
The question is why not?
Historically, the territories were never under Spanish sovereignty – the Sultanate of Sulu for instance was a recognized state long before there ever was any Philippines.
If Czhechoslovakia (an artificial entity created by imperial edict) can revert to its pre-imperial borders (Czech Republic, slovak Republik) – so can the Philippines revert to the indio and moro borders.
Bongv,
‘The question is why not?
Historically, the territories were never under Spanish…’
Why stop there? Let’s go back all the way to the Srivijaya or Madjapahit Empires.
Please don’t forget the treaties sign by the Sultan of Sulu.
1) July 22, 1878 – Sultan Jamal ul-Alam signed a treaty with the Spanish Crown making whole of Sulu a protectorate of Spain.
2) March 22, 1915 treaty with Governor Frank Carpenter – the Sultan and his heirs abdicated their claims to the throne.
Sultan Jamal ul-Alam signed a treaty with the Spanish Crown making whole of Sulu a protectorate of Spain yet retained her autonomy and the privilege to fly own flag
And, the Sultanate of Sulu is not the only Sultanate in ARMM.
Supremo, by all means why not?
Why not?
Because the Filipino people will not allow it, even if the anti-pinoy will.
That’s why. Claro?
They don’t believe in elections.
I think this issue will not go away for as long as we have self-serving “nationalists” portraying themselves as heroes.
The other reason I think that the Bangsamoro issue festers is Malaysia, the Sabah question. It is to Malaysia’s advantage that the Philippines is remains weaked by the Bangsamoro. Malaysia is the hiding place of last resort and the conduit for….
If the indio’s didn’t foment trouble in Sabah in the first place. Consider this as a get a dose of your own medicine proposition.
AlexB,
Take note that it is not Malaysia who popped in the scene all by itself when Malaysian government facilitated the GRP-MILF peace talks. Remember GMA entreated and invited the Malyasian President to offer his gesture of good will to intervene and facilitate the peacemaking and peacekeeping in Mindanao. To me, there is no relation whatsoever with the issue of Sabah claim. Such irresponsible speculation only exists among the hawkish minds in the government. Remember that when Malaysia felt its presence is no longer needed as the Philippine government is no longer compliant with what it had asked for as stipulated in the terms of references providing for the Malaysian facilitation and stay of the IMT, then it immediately pulled out its contingents since last year.
Saddam Hussein was deeply in debt with Kuwait. Because of his arms
build up. And his stalemated war with Iran.
So, he got the idea of paying debts. He invaded Kuwait. To erase the
debts. Make Kuwait a Province of Iraq.
Ever thought of invading other countries we are in debt to? Or we just welcome their invasion to pay the debts?
Is the US sleeping with the enemy?
No. Mr. Options just wants more options.
The guy in charge today is a guy who wants options. Several options in Afghanistan. Several options in healthcare. Several options in job creation. Options here, options there. Mr. Options just can’t decide.
You mean the double talking Mr.Option?
Dencio,
It’s more like ‘playing both sides of the fence’.
Supremo,
It is called thinking before acting, something you evidently oppose.
Dencio
Put an issue on the table. Otherwise I might think you are just a child throwing a hissy-fit.
Joe
When Obama went to Kenya to personally campaign for his cousin Raila Odinga in the Kenyan elections, both of them says they are cousins and that Obama calls Odinga every week on the phone. When Odinga lost the elections and he and his supporters and islamic extremist backers orchestrated a massacre of hundreds of supporters of his opponents supporters and when Odinga’s deal with muslim extremists in Kenya was exposed, Obama was quick to deny that Odinga is not his cousin. Isn’t that double talk?
During the US presidential elections, Obama said that he will not negotiate with Libya, North Korea, Venezuela and Iran. But later retracted and said that he will meet with the leaders of these nations without any pre-conditions. Isn’t that double talk?
And he is a muslim, a christian, an atheist, a socialist depending on who he is talking to.
I would not be surprised at all if the Obama-led US government given his questionable ties with islamic terrorists will now be pandering to the MILF
Joe,
I don’t oppose thinking. If you already have several options on the table and you still can’t decide then there is something wrong. I believe Mr. Options wants to do a Pontius Pilate just to preserve his supposedly ‘sanitary record’.
denicio,
Thanks for the example. It’s a good one. But where you see “double talk” I see intelligence at work, diplomacy if you will, to understand (and sometimes cater to) different perspectives. That’s why I did not understand your point of view. Mine is that he is a straight-shooter, as he has followed up on his commitments on health care when others did (or could) not, and on Iraq and Guantanamo. His campaign platform clearly was to talk to friends and foes alike; I recall no promises not to negotiate with anybody.
Anyway, I will watch him with a different eye now, to see if I can spot double-speak.
Joe
Supremo,
On to the issues . . .
Afghanistan is complex. The Taliban is building forces to nearly conventional war capability; it does this because it is a well-funded and broadly popular movement, the existing (US puppet) Afghan government is corrupt and wobbly and the Afghan army is weak and nearly incompetent. (Fraudulent) elections are underway and the entire country is unstable. Pakistan across the hills is engaged in a bloody (US puppet) offensive that risks spewing bloodbaths across the countryside and turning the whole of Pakistan against the US. The US military is stretched to the max; hospitals are filling with stressed out, over-deployed forces. Other countries don’t want to send in any more troops. Obama has Secretary of Defense Gates in one ear telling him hurry up with the troops, and Senator Kerry in the other telling him, no way we can send troops given the chaos that exists in Afghan government. Half the US public says “enough”, we have been fighting for eight years and there is no end-game in sight, and the other half is saying “get those 40,000 troops deployed NOW!”
There is a global war on terrorism, but the US public wants a sanitary war and will not stand for a draft to build up forces to fight the war in a knock-down way. Having TV’s in everyone’s living room has made Americans squeamish about war-deaths, something the enemy does not mind at all.
So, Supremo, what is the way out? My guess is you have (typical) Filipino Republican leanings, and you want the 40,000 troops sent in NOW. So you say, get them deployed and WIN this thing. You agree with Cheney.
And I ask, okay, what if it is not enough troops to win? Or what if the whole of Afghanistan turns on the US? What is your option?
Oh, that’s right. You don’t like options. It’s a sign of indecisiveness. Just send 40,000 overstressed young men and women into chaos, into hell . . . no biggie . . .
Joe
Joe,
Who said that I favor sending more troops to Afghanistan?
Mr. Options can decide to get out if he wants to and I will not have a problem with that. The problem is ‘HE CANNOT DECIDE’.
The Taliban has been able to build its forces due to policies that make soldiers fight with their hands tied behind their backs. The Afghan government is week, wobbly and incompetent because it is their nature to be so. Spend some time with sand monkeys and maybe you’ll see why. Pakistan engaging offensives against Taliban and Al Qaeda is a good thing.
Supremo,
Maybe he did decide. Maybe his decision was to use the troops to pressure President Karzai into agreeing to runoff to prevent Afghanistan’s descent into political quagmire that would, in turn, make fighting immensely more difficult. You see, you sit in your arm chair with a San Mig, and Mr. Obama sits with CIA reports and inputs from generals, ambassadors, senators, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State, and foreign leaders.
But you feel you know better how the man should run his job.
Joe
Ski,
Yes, hands tied. They are tied because of press attention that rouses Muslim sentiment against the US because of US bombings that lead to civilian deaths, and American public opposition to deaths of American troops. The impossibility of fighting a sanitary war, when the enemy does not follow the same rules. It’s like the Brits in 1875 marched in polite rows as they were mowed down by scruffy revolutionary Americans shooting from the trees. Unbalanced rules.
I say, throw out all the journalists and fight to win. Wars are dirty. Report when it is over.
Joe
Joe
On the other hand, can you contemplate the consequences of a Taliban victory in Pakistan and Afghanistan. You have 2 weak governments. One is a failed state, the other in the brink of falling with hundreds of nuclear weapons under their matresses. The problem with US policy is their habit of destroying the existing state. It wasn’t never enough for them to defeat the army of their enemy. They always have to remove the last remaining control mechanism their enemies have to prevent the country from falling into chaos. Unlike in the middle ages, the victor does not destroy the government of the defeated state, they make them pay tributes. Not so with US policy.
Maybe they shouldn’t have gone into Iraq. Iraq poses a direct threat to Iran. With Iraq now without a strong government and credible military threat to Iran, Iran is out of control. It has none but Israel to stop it. If I were Bush, I would invade Iran instead of Iraq. Maybe the US should have gone to Afghanistan, destroyed Al Qaeda and went out. But they shouldn’t have had to destroy Taliban too and made it spread to Pakistan. At least Taliban is content on ruling only Afghanistan. Now Pakistan is in brink of falling into Taliban hands. And they are now winning in Afghanistan too.
We are now out of options. During the cold war, mutual nuclear annihilation kept the combatants at bay. Now the world has an enemy who is willing blow themselves up and nuke the world back into stone age if it means they will go to paradise and make love to 77 virgins. How do you threaten to kill an enemy that is willing to die?
Obama is a weak leader. He hasn’t got the balls to do what must be done. He is downplaying the threat of islamic terrorism. He wants to negotiate with Iran. What possibly can he say to Iran that hasn’t already been said by those who came before him? Now Iran has nuclear weapons. Maybe Guantanamo shouldn’t have existed. But now he is releasing dangerous men who hates the world more and are more willing to destroy infidels more than ever. Now Taliban is salivating over Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. Mr. Options has no options but to finish what has been already started. Can anyone imagine the threat of a nculear powered Taliban or Al Qaeda?
War is dirty. You can’t fight it the way US is fighting it.
Darwin25,
I agree with you entirely except for the part about Obama being a weak leader. And I appreciate that you backed up your “Mr. Options” slur instead of just laying it out there. I personally see Obama as intelligent and dignified, and Bush as weak. But, indeed, whether Obama’s approach is correct or wrong, weak or strong, will be the pudding . . . Given that GW had 8 years to screw it up, I’ll give Mr. O a bit more time to prove his mettle.
Oh, and I think Obama agrees with your last line.
Joe
Bush is an idiot. He shouldn’t have gone into Iraq. If he wants to find weapons of mass destruction, he should’ve went into Iran instead. Saddam Hussein is a danger only to himself and his people. He got islamic extremists in check and under control. Iran on the other hand sponsors terror. It sponsors Hamas and Hezbollah.
Back to the Philippines, playing games with islmaic extremists which are aplenty in the MILF is very dangerous especially with its links to Jemaah Islamiyah. The possibility of a nuclear powered Taliban is not too remote. Those pakistani nukes can and will find their way in JI’s hands and ultimately in Abu Sayyaf and MILF hands.
Supremo,
Okay, with apologies to MB for the diversion from his much more important topic . . .
The final issue you raised, job creation.
The damage laid on America’s table by Mr. GW Bush’s economic policies was indeed incredibly devastating to jobs. In my home state of California, over 12% of the workable public is on the sidelines.
The first round of stimulus aid included several job-saving programs, put in place within weeks of Obama taking office. I’m sure you remember that initiative. It is the one that stopped the worldwide financial panic, bam, done deal. The job impacts of the first round are being studied for a possible second round. It has been determined that the first effort saved 62,000 teaching jobs in California alone, and millions across the US. The Republican governor of California graciously thanked the President for the important relief the programs gave his stressed-out state.
So, yes, President Obama is considering what further OPTIONS exist to continue to recapture the jobs lost by Mr. Bush. Economists suggest this may be difficult as the job losses were not trimmings, but the structural decimation of the auto industry and collapse of several financial giants. “The mother of all jobless recoveries” is the quote that rings way too clear.
I am rather curious as to what part of the astounding economic turnaround you attribute to Mr. Obama’s indecisiveness? And what part of the 81% growth in my stock portfolio since April was generated by Mr. Obama’s dithering ways?
Perhaps you are mistaking Mr. Obama for someone else? Mr. Obama is the black dude, middle name Hussein, a thinking man’s man . . . a diplomatic man’s man . . . He operates 180 degrees apart from the way name callers work. He deserves respect and gets it from most people who do not have a political or racist axe to grind.
Joe
Supremo,
On to health care, as an issue . . .
Health care has been out of President Obama’s hands now for several months. It rests with the House and the Senate, who are responsible for crafting the laws that will implement health care reform. Committees of these respective bodies have been hammering out the various aspects of a major bill, with foremost concern being whether or not there will be a government insurance effort of any kind to keep private industry honest, pricewise, and, of course, the overall cost of the bill, which is now pegged at about $860 billion over ten years.
So I don’t know what you mean by options for the President. His option is to either pass the bill he gets or veto it. If it is taking time, it is due to legislative process, not Obama. He is not a dictator.
Health care is a campaign commitment Mr. Obama made, and he is the only president who has been able to get it out onto the legislative table. Mr. Bush did not. Mr. Clinton failed. Mr. Bush Sr. did not. Obama did it by making it a high priority and by leveraging the Democratic majority in the House and Senate.
He was decisive and has been relentless in supporting legislative efforts. Most of his speechwork has been to douse the flames of deceit thrown up by Republicans who are insistent on making political hay rather than being earnest in working on difficult problems (e.g., the “death panels” charge). It is easy to sit on the sidelines and carp, which is the Republican approach, and it is much worse than “indecisive”. It is destructive. I trust it is not your approach, too.
Joe
One just has to see through all the crap and conclude, Mr. MCB here is anti-Muslim. He seems to be talking about only MILF, but he’s apparently taken by the paranoia that all Muslims are enemies. The 9-11 paranoia.
Chino F,
I am anti-MILF because I am pro muslim. I want to see development, modernization, and peace in muslim mindanao. I want muslims, christians, buddhists, atheists coexist just like they do here in Manila. It is the MILF that gets in the way. So U am against the MILF because I am pro muslim.
The 9/11 paranoia you accuse me of is baseless. You do not know whereof you speak, I have written at least a dozen articles against the War on Terror and the invasion of Iraq. I wrote against the Philippine contingent to Iraq and I applauded our withdrawal Google me.
Do not conflate my anti-MILF anti-secessionist views with 9/11 paranoia
I stand corrected. I wonder if the US is trying to deal with MILF the way Ireland dealt with IRA. Ireland’s way was laudable. Guess the US is thinking the Philippine gov’t can’t deal with this problem themselves and will do their own thing. After all, the Philippine gov’t started everything with the Jabidah Massacre.
Here is a cut-and-paste from an e-mail.
—-
The problem with many is that they think they are a George Bush and they know the democracy that Mindanao Muslims want. Mindanao looks to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Syia for ideas on how to run a country. So a few Muslims like those with degrees from Manila or Los Banos may be comfortable working in call centers or in banks in Pasig or Makati, but many of Mindanao Muslim men think different. Polygamy; marrying age of women lowered to 12; men to be lord and women to obey. Mindanao does not want to be a Manila where people work at all hours of the night and do not pray.
Mike H,
You forgot to mention slave trading. But you hit the bull’s eye. They want to live under sharia law, not under Philippine laws. They don’t want democracy. They want to keep living in feudalism.
In Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia. Wives are bought
and sold. Rich people can buy many wives. Poor people
have difficulties buying wives. Many of the poor people
are turning to Bestiality to give way to their sexual
frustrations. The King of Saudi Arabia has many wives.
Families with daughters of marrying ages present their
daughters to the King. To be part of the Royal Family.
SHARIA LAWS are laws derived from The Koran. It is
an 11th century sets of laws. It includes: stoning of
adulterers, cutting of hands, praying five times a day,
women being veiled and cannot go out without male escorts. It demands women not to be educated. You can see the TALIBAN blowing up schools for women. Terrorizing women who want education. It is a stinking sets of laws, set up by people with Stinking Thinking.
No different from all the Western women trying to get in bed with millionaires as mistresses. At least the King has the decency to provide for these women and take them in as their wives – spell Spitzer, Clinton, and Chappaquidick puhleeze.
No different from the stinking laws of the CALIBAN’s Old Testament – get stoned if a woman enters the temple with menstruation.
“I am anti-MILF because I am pro muslim.”
Is that being an “anti-whatsoever” rationally justified?
“I want to see development, modernization, and peace in muslim mindanao. I want muslims, christians, buddhists, atheists coexist just like they do here in Manila.”
Well that is also what ordinary Moro and the MILF want. It is just that the stolen rights must be returned back to where it is due. Isn’t it what the free thinkers also advocate for?
You see, while looking at the Mindanao problem, you seem to confuse anything with everything or anybody with everybody.
FYI, let me clarify here for you the categories of conflict in Mindanao. In one category, it includes the conflict between the government forces and the Moro fronts and this falls under “sovereignty-based conflict.” The other one involves conflict between military against communist parties i.e. CPP/NPA which falls under “ideology-based conflict.” The third includes conflict of the army with the Abu Sayyaf/JI and this is categorized as plain “terrorism.” The fourth one includes government troops in conflict with the criminal elements which is purely “criminality” by nature. The fifth one involves the IP communities in conflict with business interest groups and this is a “resource-based conflict” while the last category are those conflicts among families and clans which are purely family feuds or locally called “rido.”
I said in other posts that these categories must not be lump together as one in appellation so that each has its own unique way of resolution. For example, the conflict involving the question of sovereignty must never be equated nor lumped together with the category that involves conflict between the army and terrorist groups, or criminal elements. It is just that, while failing to have a clear and consistent peace policy in Mindanao, the Philippine government, irrespective of administrations is always banking upon repeated mistakes by seeing the Moro people’s clamor for right to self-determination raised by Moro fronts as mere insurgency, internal problem or more appallingly as mere terrorism. And by that, the government irresponsibly deals with it like it deals with terrorism and criminalities. Things become blurry then as hawks in the government dip hands with its psywar experts and employ LIC like America and other superpowers do the world over. Usually the good exploit of local lawless groups is tapped as part of the government deliberate counter-insurgency measures whose aim is to reduce said sovereignty issue as mere insurgency, thereby discredit the Moro people’s clamor for right to self-determination of its legitimacy.
Hyden Toro,
I never read for the life of me in Islam about buying wives and then sold afterwards. When you spend for marriage then that’s considered buying a wife? The dowry is not that case. That is the obligatory gift of a Muslim male to a woman who he is marrying and nothing goes to her parents. Any Muslim male can not marry as many as he can. Instead, Muslim male is permitted, NOT OBLIGATORY AS PART OF THE FAITH, to marry until four wives provided he can comply in toto with the emotional and material obligations that polygamous marriage requires.
In the Qur’an it says: A Muslim male can “Marry one, OR two, OR three, OR four” and “NOT marry one AND two, AND three, AND four.” But again, such permission is restricted with gargantuan obligation to fulfill. Then in the following verse it says, “But if you can not deal justly with them, then marry ONLY ONE.”
Hayden Toro, there is no such a thing in Islam prohibiting Muslim women from education. In fact, seeking knowledge is obligatory upon all Muslims be they males or females. Please, do not confuse a particular cultural practices, say, Arab culture with Islam.
But Hayden Toro, which would you prefer: polygamy in the context of strict rules/preconditions or monogamy in the context of illicit relations outside wedlock? You see, in the West or even here in the Philippines, with due respect to women, prostitutes are jealous nowadays for sexual gratification is instead peddled nowadays by young and even educated, let alone enlightened, women for free!
The hostages being dealt with by Lt. Col. Oliver North were in
Lebanon, not Iran. They were held by the Lebanon HEZBALLAH. I correct myself. One of the hostages was an American ABC Journalist, named Anderson. Pres. Reagan was touched by a plea from one of the family of the hostages. So, he approved the Trade for Arms for Hostages. Money plus the release of the hostages. In turn, the money from the sale of Arms will be used to finance the Nicaraguan CONTRAS fighting the SANDANISTAS. “Nabisto ang deal”. It resulted to U.S. Congress investigation. Nearly leading to the impeachment of Pres. Reagan. Vice Pres. George Bush, the original, denied he knew the matter. Ran for President. And was elected. LIARS ARE NOT THE MONOPOLY OF PHILIPPINE POLITICS.
IRAN WAS THE PATRON OF THE TERRORIST GROUP HEZBALLAH. So, the
U.S. had to deal with Iran. Terrorist groups are usually financed by countries sponsoring Terrorism. Same as the case
in all Terrorist Group like the MILF. These people have the
stinking thinking of spreading Islam by violence. Lands or
a place where they can launch their terrorism is their first
move. Just to promote a conflict. Muhammad, I think was not
a prophet, as they claimed. He was a tribal warrior. Same as
his successors. Islam was split into two sects. The SUNNIS and
the SHIITES. If these people are not fighting other people. They are on each other’s throats. Like the sectarian violence
in Iraq. THEY ARE ADDICTED TO CONFLICTS. AS WE ARE ADDICTED
TO POLITICS.
Hayden Toro,
You can read “Good Muslim, Bad Muslim – An African Perspective” by Mahmood Mamdani. Perhaps it can shed some light upon you.
To give you information. Muhammad was illiterate. He claimed to had
received Revelations from God. Thru the Archangel Gabriel. The verses
dictated by the Archangel Gabriel. He spoke them to his followers. The followers wrote the verses from Archangel Gabriel;
forming their holy book called THE KORAN. I respect all religions.
Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Nudists, Devil Worshippers,UFO Believers, etc…I just dont want anybody to force his beliefs on anybody. Using violence to promote religious agendas is the worst OXYMORON, I have ever seen.
No different from the “prophets” of the Old Testament. Consider Paul’s witnessing of the christ – in a vision.
Consider the pronouncements of the popes and Caliban – supposedly under god’s instructions. how did they get it? telephone? fax? email?
Hayden Toro,
I give you what Thomas D. Williams, LC, ThD has to say in his “Greater Than You Think: A Theologian Answers the Athiests About God, 1st Edition, USA, p. 43”
“If we take the century spanning from 1900 to 2000, we discover death tolls in the name of religion-free utopias totaling well over 100 million.
Or see http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
He further writes, “An estimated 61, 911, 000 were killed in the Soviet Gulag State, 35, 236, 000 in Communist China, 20, 946, 000 under National Socialism (Nazism) and 2, 035, 000 by the Khmer Rogue in Cambodia.”
Or in particular, I give you what Dr. Jürgen Todenhöfer’ has to say in his “Why Do You Kill Zaid:”
“Muslims were not the people who slaughtered 4 million people during the crusade; Muslims weren’t the people who killed 50 million people during imperialism; also Muslims weren’t the people who killed 70 million people in WWI and WWII; Muslims weren’t the one who killed 6 millions of Jews either but that was the outcome of the western invasion..”
see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oh1DDFx6Kk
Who are now the oxymoron then?
Secessionists, my eye. The government of the Republic of the Philippines is in no position to tell the United States what to do or not do with regard to interacting with a sovereign people unjustly occupied. The Philippines cannot even run its own affairs properly, its imperial pretensions with regard to the Bangsamoro are beyond farcical.
BenK,
Unjustly occupied or not, what do you suppose should happen to non-muslims now living in the areas claimed by the bangsamoro? Ancestral domain my ass. Maybe I should start building my own army and claim ancestral domain on my ancestral province Bulacan.
Darwin25,
Okay, I am gaining respect for you now, keep it coming. I ask this question, too, and people don’t answer it. However, I am confident BenK can concoct something reasonable. His brain is not bound by conventional limits.
Joe
The majority of the non-Muslims would not be there if not for a concerted effort, several concerted efforts, to populate the region with them by the overlords in Manila, the Americans first and then the RP government.
Let them have their independence, the rebellion instantly ends. The ASG and the JI become the Bangsamoro’s problem, not the RP’s (unless those groups want to bring the fight up here, then the RP can deal with it). The communist rebellion loses a important ally – how much it is an actual one as opposed to a sentimental one is hard to say, but an ally nonetheless – and thus the Philippines’ “other” embarassing insurrection is that much weaker. Not to mention that the NPA also becomes the Bangsamoro’s problem, too: the RP certainly wouldn’t tolerate the BM offering them sanctuary, and the BM certainly wouldn’t tolerate a communist revolt in their own lands.
You’re right in one respect; the land belongs to whoever occupies it. But the RP is quite obviously losing the fight to hang onto it. Would the US even be there if the AFP had things under control? Probably not, and the US presence is not doing much good – nor should anyone expect it to, given the latter’s sorry record in Afghanistan and Iraq. It’s a simple choice: correct the injustices of history and gain an ally, or maintain the imperial pretensions and face more kidnappings, more fighting, more Superferrys, more Valentine’s Days.
It’s easy to understand these anti-pinoy guys wanting to give away Philippine lands to separatists. After all what are they anti-pinoy for if they don’t live up to their name.
BenK,
Okay, given your argument of non-muslim migration in mindanao. But that was a long time ago. Most of those people when that happened are dead now.
But hey, the growth of non-muslim population of Mindanao is not by migration alone. Muslims all over Luzon and Visayas were converted to catholicism during the spanish era. The same goes for many parts of Mindanao too, even in places where muslims are the majority. Many muslims and non-muslims in Mindanao were converted to catholicism. Mindanao does not belong solely to muslims. And the idea of a Filipino nation which comprises Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao already exists during the spanish times. Many non-muslims, christians and lumads, can also lay ancestral claim in areas claimed by the bangsamoro. But look at what the muslims does to the lumads?
So I ask the question again, what do you suppose will happen to non-muslims living in areas claimed by the bangsamoro? Are we gonna let them be displaced? Leave their homes, possesions and livelihood? Live under shariah law? They are fellow Filipinos who have as much right as everyone else to live in Mindanao.
The issue cannot be addressed as “all the non-Muslims living in Mindanao”. There will be those who will be subject to the Bangsamoro’s own version of land reform, presuming they would do that sort of thing. There are others who would not be, for whatever reason. I’ve always taken the position that the RP should demand recognition by the Bangsamoro of the UNHDR in any sort of negotiations, and that particular declaration proscribes unjustified land-grabbing.
The old sultanates, as with most Muslim-dominated realms throughout history, were remarkably tolerant of outsiders, much more so than Christian countries. Given the Islamic respect for history, there is no reason to assume out of hand that the Bangsamoro would not be similar. Nevertheless, those non-Muslims who would wish to remain in the Bangsamoro would be subject to their civil law (Shari’a Law only applies to Muslims), and if they didn’t like it, well, pack up and go.
When the Bangsa Moros gain full independence and sovereignty, people residing in the Bangsa Moro territory have the choice of becoming permanent residents or become Bangsa Moro citizens. They will not be displaced. They will keep their homes, possession, and livelihood. And yes, they will live under Shariah law. If they don’t want to live under Shariah law – then, they can relocate, simple as that.
Your claim to ancestral domain was kicked in the butt by the Spanish. The Moros on the other kicked spanish butt for the three hundred years Bulakenyos were wiping spanish butt.
BenK, BongV
Thanks for finally answering the question. Those who don’t like Muslim law can leave (or be jailed, have daughters stoned, etc). Without compensation, Hasta La Vista, or is it Hacienda Luista, Baby!
That’s why there will never be an independent Mindanao, because a higher calling than religious law is secular law that respects all people and gives them the right to self-determination, free speech, and security. You argue that it is okay to take these rights away from non-Muslims, or purge them in a gentle “final solution”.
I would argue that a better approach would be for Muslims to articulate a constitution that would state in black and white what the legal framework would be for Muslims and non-Muslims alike. If they can craft a constitution that respects non-Muslims (does not discriminate), then they have made a much better case that they are responsible and broad-thinking enough for self-determination.
Joe
When the Bangsa Moros gain full independence and sovereignty, people residing in the Bangsa Moro territory have the choice of becoming permanent residents or become Bangsa Moro citizens. They will not be displaced. They will keep their homes, possession, and livelihood. And yes, they will live under Shariah law. If they don’t want to live under Shariah law – then, they can relocate, simple as that.
BongV
That’s unacceptable. I implore you to say that yourself to those non-muslims who will be displaced
Your claim to ancestral domain was kicked in the butt by the Spanish. The Moros on the other kicked spanish butt for the three hundred years Bulakenyos were wiping spanish butt.
So the tagalogs’ butts were kicked by the spanish. I’m sure the tagalogs gave the spanish lots of headaches too like the moros are are giving as headaches now. If kicking butts is your premise of being subjugated, didn’t we kick the moros butts more than once?
Benk,
Shariah Law does not only applies to muslim. They also apply to non-muslims living in muslim lands. Go figure Saudi Arabia. And with the number of islamic extremists in the MILF, it will be applied to the non-muslims in the bangsamoro lands. You said those who don’t like it there can pack up and go. Easy for you to say. Well the muslims can pack up and go to Sabah, but they’re not going there are they? Next thing we know, we will be sponsoring and fighting a proxy war inside bangsamoro country.
That’s their land, their territory in the first place. You are guests, not the owners. Behave accordingly.
indios gave headaches, but never got to assert sovereignty in their own territory – they needed approval of the spanish civil authorities – they weren’t allowed to own land; whereas the moros had sovereignty over their territories – FOR THREE HUNDRED YEARS.
That’s their land, their territory in the first place. You are guests, not the owners. Behave accordingly.
Says who? Them?
Then I guess we’ll just have to let the gun barrels do the talking.
They want us out of “their” lands, they better kick our asses out of there.
I did mention a few years ago that the United States wants Mindanao to be an American Protectorate.
Actually, the 1935 Declaration of Dansalan spelled it outright – the Moros do not want to be integrated with the Indios and prefer to be a protectorate of the United States.
yeah, read the book as well.
Then again, you have opposite declarations by other Muslim leaders like Lanao’s Aluya Alonto during the 1935 Constitutional Convention:
Then the sentiment swung back to separation in the period leading up to the Martial Law era…
Aluya Alonto was a minority and became a vassal of the indio colonizers.
CVJ,
perhaps this could be in anticipation of the United Nations General Assembly’s “Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples” since 1960. :-)
Why not ship the rebellious Muslims to Sabah, let Sabah go and let them off there? It’s all because of that Sabah crap this Muslim insurgency problem here happened. Since the Philippines can never get it together over Sabah, they better let go of it.
Chino F
Like you I think the Bangsamoro Juridical Entity should be Sabah
These people are addicted to conflicts, violence, hates,
killings, etc…Even if you give them independence or
lands. They will continue in their violent ways. How do
you deal with people who want to spread Islam thru JIHAD? Understand the Muslim Faith; its history; its
tenets and dogmas. Then you can understand why these
people are acting this way. Dying for the faith is the
duty of a believer. You must convert the infidels (us).
Martyrdom guarantees immediate entrance to Heaven. With
72 Virgins waiting for you. Together with 72 Mansions.
What a stinking thinking!
At least you agree there should be a place where these Muslims should be untouched by our corrupt government (Philippine imperialism, anyone?). Otherwise, if they can’t go there, might as well make a Bangsamoro here. Mindanao can be considered, even just as a last resort, whether in part or as a whole. This should be thought of carefully since we’re in the middle of a Muslim-dominated region and it could be a flashpoint.
That is a misconception, get the facts (http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm):
Question: Aren’t there some verses of the Qur’an that condone “killing the infidel”?
Answer: The Qur’an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle — i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur’an are in this context.
There are some specific verses that are very often “snipped” out of context, either by critics of Islam discussing “jihadism,” or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.
“Slay Them” – If They Attack You First
For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: “slay them wherever you catch them” (Qur’an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are “they” that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:
“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter… But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful… If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression” (2:190-193).
It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back — but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.
“Fight the Pagans” – If They Break Treaties
A similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 — which in its snipped, out of context version could read: “fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war).” Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.
This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them… (as quoted above).
Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, “but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them… for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that “as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous.”
Conclusion
Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur’an. Nowhere in the Qur’an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in ‘payback’ for another people’s alleged crimes.
The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur’an 60:7-8):
“It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just.”
Here is what I think will happen if MILF succeeds in seccesion. This analysis is based on current facts and goings on. I will set aside any argument pro or agaisnt secession
Bangsamoro country (or whatever they will call it will become another Afghanistan. Or maybe Darfur
Why?
There are many islamic extremists in MILF. There is also the Abu Sayyaf. Both ASG and MILF has ties to Jemaah Islamiyah and Al Al Qaeda. Remember the relationship between Taliban and Al Qaeda? That relationship will be the same between JI and MILF/ASG. Wanna bet? Bangsamoro country will become a haven for international islamic extremists. JI and Al Qaeda training camps will be all over that country.
Pakistan is in grave danger of falling into Taliban hands. Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is a trophy. Those nukes will surely find their way into bangsamoro country though Al Qaeda and JI. Into the hands of hajjis itching to blow up every infidel in the face of this earth. And who are the infidels? Oh I forgot, we are the only christian country in Asia. Those infidels are US.
How does any of you like that.
Another scenario is that they can become like Singapore (after the partition from Malaysia). Sulu, in the past was a major trading hub so it can finally resume that role.
By its very nature, history is full of contingent outcomes. It can be argued that the partition of India and Pakistan was ‘bad’, but that the partition of Malaysia and Singapore turned out to be a good thing. For Bangsamoro, it can turn out either way.
cvj,
I agree with you. But right now, there is nothing to support your scenario. All the facts points to right now is for more chaos and uncertainty to come if MILF succeeds in secession.
If Bangsamoro is established and the leadership of that new entity agrees to drop the Sabah claim, then Malaysia will stop funding the extremists. The Bangsamoro leadership can also agree to house US Bases on their territory in exchange for aid. That plus the fact that the Filipino Muslims are entrepreneurial and have a long tradition of trading, makes me believe that an independent Bangsamoro will be more like Singapore rather than Pakistan.
On the other hand, if border disputes with the rest of Mindanao persists and if the Bangsamoro leadership continues to pursue the Sabah claim, and if they behave like rent-seeking oligarchs, then maybe it will be more like Pakistan and we will have a new dangerous neighbor as you predict.
cvj,
You haven’t been reading thoroughly what I wrote.
Islamic extremists.
Gone are the days when the MILF is fighting only for independence/secession from the Philippines. The MILF ceased to be a conventional secessionist army a long time ago. Do you have any idea how much influence Al Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah have over MILF? JI fighters are training in MILF camps. Indonesians have been seen and arrested and killed and documented fighting in Mindanao alongside MILF. In Basilan and Sulu, MILF members are part-time members and /or relatives of Abu Sayyaf members. JI have been launching attacks all over South-east Asia from MILF camps as their base of operations. How much of the MILF leadership is influenced by Al Qaeda and JI is unknown. Sabah isn’t even going to be in the equation
Infidels.
That’s what the United States of America is to the eyes of these islamic extremists. Infidels like us christians and non-muslims. Do you really think the extremists within the MILF will accept US bases in bangsamoro land?
There will be US bases within bangsamoro land. But not because the MILF will welcome it. The overstretched US military will be fighting these extremists in bangsamoro country and so will we. Provinces surrounding the bangsamoro country will be subject to rockets, shellings, suicide bomber, small-unit cross-border attacks. You name it, you got it. If they get their hands on nukes, you know what we’ll be getting it from them.
Focus on what the facts are pointing to right now and not on hopes that everything will be okay. I’m not wearing my tin-foil hat but I evidence that the tide of islamic extremism reaching the MILF has already changed the equation and rules of the game.
I did read what you wrote, but i also read the main entry which indicates the United States and MILF being friendly with each other. Which scenario do you think Manuel Buencamino’s entry validates, the United States as adversary or as ally?
Extremists in Sulu are able to agitate due to poverty.
Remove the poverty, bring in jobs – the extremists will be like fish out of water – as was achieved in Davao City. From a laboratory of insurgency tactics to the most liveable city and most competitive city in the Philippines.
Whatever. All arguments aside. An independent bangsamoro state is just too dangerous an idea for now. At least for now, until the threat of worldwide islamic extremism has been stopped globally, we should not allow bangsamoro to be independent.
The US gov’t is way over it’s head. They have a bad rap in this department. They’re the one responsible for the Taliban. They’re the ones responsible for the Abu Sayyaf. Now they’re making the same mistake with the MILF.
On the contrary, It is more dangerous not to recognize the bangsamoro sovereignty. The disaffected will be ripe candidates for extremists. You are actually adding fuel to the fire by not recognizing bangsamoro sovereignty – very very very dangerous.
They are as responsible for the Taliban as they are responsible for the Philippines when they made the bad rap of integrating the moros and the indios despite the former’s protests and declarations in Dansalan in 1935 and in Zamboanga in 1914.
That land is Philippine territory. For muslims and non-muslims alike. They want to convince us that land is theirs, they have to convince us through force of arms. They want it. They have to earn it. MOLON LABE
Philippine territory is an aritificial territory created by colonial edict.
What Caesar giveth – Caesar can take away.
Part of the Jihadist Tactic is to show themselves as suffering from
violence; or as oppressed people. So, the atrocities of the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are magnified. While their atrocities like: suicide bombings, indiscriminate violence on civilians, making civilians as their shields are not emphasized. Look at the Twin Tower Bombing at the World Trade Center in New York. They know there are innocent civilians that will be killed. They killed them anyway. It is because of their MINDSETS. That they are the believers of their diety Allah. We are the non believers or the infidels. They can do anything to us. Including: murder us, kill us, terrorize us and oppress us like the non muslim OFWs in Muslim countries.
The people in the Muslim countries like the Palestinians and
others were seen on TV dancing on the streets and celebrating when people in the World Trade Center were murdered. Not only these people are evil. They are the scums of this Planet Earth.
Uh, Hyden… I think it’s not healthy to be wholly anti-Muslim, you know.
That is incorrect as the TV does not show the greater number of Muslims who were unhappy about the actions of fundamentalist extremists. For instance, American Muslims.
Your statement is incorrect .
And, aren’t your comments getting a bit racist already? Whoa there, I say.
I am not anti Muslim. Some of my friends are Muslims.
They respect my views. I respect their Religion. As I
respect any Religion.
It is those JIHADIST who on pretense of having a place
of launching an attack on innocent people that I am
against. Look at the Taliban. They have the Northern
Pakistan to launch attacks of the Cities of Pakistan.
They once controlled Afghanistan to launch the attack
on World Trade Center. It is those EXTEMIST and FUNDAMENTALIS MUSLIMS, I am against. They will always
use deception to promote their religious agendas to
rule the world. Which is an STINKING THINKING!
I am not afraid of these people. They cannot terrorize
me. We are eating the same rice, fish, vegetables, etc…They are only good in sowing fears thru terorism.
If you dance and celebrate on the streets. When innocent
people are murdered for your religious reason, that they are infidels. What kind of human being are you? Did those people done any evil on you? No sir, they just happen to be there, earning a living like the rest of us.
You want to see those footage on TV?
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan result from the end of the Cold War. The break-up of the Soviet Union created a vacuum – which was handily filled in by extremists of every race and religious belief.
The religious extremists who happen to be Moslem are simply playing catching up with the religious intolerance practiced by medieval Catholics. During those times, anyone who went against Catholic dogma was persecuted, placed on the torture racks, even dipped into boiling oil, or burned on the stakes like Joan of Arc.
It was the agenda of the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden
to set up Caliphate thruout the World. Like the Old
Ottoman Empire . Al Queda Documents and
interviews from Al Queda opperatives are clear. Terrorize the infidels to submit to Islam.
Dont hide, because the History of the Spread of Islam is
there. DECEIT IS PART OF THEIR WARFARE! The case of
the split of the Sunnis and Shiites is also there. Killings, murders and deceits among their leaders of who to spread Islam.
Not all muslims agree with the Taliban and OBL.
Learn to distinguish between extremist elements of a religion and the religion itself. The Caliban has its own Knights Templar.
The split between Sunnis and Shiites is no different from the split between Catholics and Protestants.
Hyden:
You have been watching Hollywood for too long :)
http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism.htm
Question: What does the Qur’an say about terrorism?
Muslims claim that their faith promotes justice, peace, and freedom. Critics of the faith (and some Muslims themselves) cite verses from the Qur’an that seem to promote violent, armed warfare. How can these different images be reconciled?
Answer: The entire Qur’an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings.
At the time the Qur’an was revealed (7th century A.D.), there was no United Nations or Amnesty International to keep the peace or expose injustice. Inter-tribal violence and vengeance was commonplace. As a matter of survival, one must have been willing to defend against aggression from all sides. Nevertheless, the Qur’an repeatedly urges forgiveness and restraint, and warns believers not to “transgress” or become “oppressors.” Some examples:
If anyone slays a person
- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -
it would be as if he slew all people.
And if anyone saves a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all people.
Qur’an 5:32
Invite all to the way of your Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching.
And argue with them
in ways that are best and most gracious…
And if you punish,
let your punishment be proportional
to the wrong that has been done to you.
But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.
Be patient, for your patience is from God.
And do not grieve over them,
or distress yourself because of their plots.
For God is with those who restrain themselves,
and those who do good.
Qur’an 16:125-128
Oh you who believe!
Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God,
even against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin,
and whether it be against rich or poor,
for God can best protect both.
Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve,
and if you distort justice or decline to do justice,
verily God is well acquainted with all that you do.
Qur’an 4:135
The recompense for an injury
is an injury equal thereto (in degree),
but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation,
his reward is due from God,
for God loves not those who do wrong.
But indeed, if any do help and defend themselves
after a wrong done to them,
against such there is no cause of blame.
The blame is only against those who oppress men
with wrongdoing and insolently transgress
beyond bounds through the land,
defying right and justice.
For such there will be a penalty grievous (in the Hereafter).
But indeed, if any show patience and forgive,
that would truly be an affair of great resolution.
Qur’an 42:40-43
Goodness and evil are not equal.
Repel evil with what is better.
Then that person with whom there was hatred,
may become your intimate friend!
And no one will be granted such goodness
except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,
none but people of the greatest good fortune.
Qur’an 41:34-35
Hey, be a suicide bomber. You will enter Paradise.
With 72 Virgins aand 72 masions waiting for you.
What an Oxymoron thinking!
What goodness and fairness is there. When your rich
people have many wives, as they can afford it. Your
poor people are turning to Bestiality and self gratifications to release their sexual frustrations.
Rich people have too much of the good thing. Poor people
cannot even have the good thing. Put your Red Flag on
top of your house. My daughter is for sale. OXYMORONS !
I dont watch movies. I am a very educated Business
person who happen to love History. I have been studying
History and Religions for more than 35 years now. I know
the Koran, the Jewish Talmud, the Christian Bible, the Vedas, the Buddhist principles, etc…
All religions promote the brotherhood of men. Love and
care of your fellowmen. It is the religious leaders
who twisted religious principles who are at fault of
our present misinterpretation of God’s holy teachings.
Unless you have the Divine Conciousness. You will never
understand those Holy Books.
One of the biggest Israeli propaganda myths is the invention of 72 virgins as a Muslim reward for suicide. This has been repeated to the western world so often that most people accept it as fact. The media wants us to believe that there cannot be anything wrong about Israelis – who must be seen as eternal victims – to cause anyone to commit suicide as a means of striking back at them. Heavens no! The motivation for suicide bombings in Israel has nothing to do with Jewish treatment of Palestinians. Instead it has to do with the evilness of the Palestinians and their religious beliefs. This is the “bill of goods” they sell the western mind while at the same time faking most, if not all the “Islamic suicide bombings” to blame on Muslims.
It is a sick and despicable mind that feels that it has a right to attack, steal, murder and cause harm to others but if the others dare fight back they are wrong and therefore terrorists. This one sentence describes Israeli thinking and their policies. They believe they are superior and entitled and they have a right to do anything to other people and those people better not retaliate. As a result they have done more by way of propaganda to take the legitimate fight of those who are against their wrongs and demonize them. We now have this ongoing enormous propaganda campaign to make Palestinians and anyone belonging to the same religion as Palestinians, to be seen as mindless terrorists and suicide bombers with no cause other than to do evil. And, of course, vicariously receiving 72 virgins as a reward in paradise for committing suicide to kill a few Israelis.
The Qur’an and valid authentic Hadiths are very clear about what happens to anyone who commits suicide. According to Hadiths:
Quote:
——————————————————————————–
Committing Suicide is a Major Sin:
Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445:
Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”
Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73:
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: ”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection.
——————————————————————————–
There are many more Hadiths condemning suicide but I would also like to reference the Qur’an. Amongst the many verses against suicide here is one that makes it very clear that the taking of one’s life is strongly prohibited and that there is no reward for anyone who does that.
Quote:
——————————————————————————–
But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily God hath been to you Most Merciful!
If any do that in rancour and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for God.
Qur’an 4:29 – 4:30
——————————————————————————–
So where did the reward of 72 virgins in paradise for suicide come from? Are there any Islamic teachings we can point to endorsing that?
When we look at the highest authority in Islam, the Quran, we find nothing in it endorsing rewards for suicide. Instead we find the strongest condemnation with severe punishments for those who commit suicide. When we look at Hadiths, which after the Quran is second in authority in Islam, we find nothing in the authentic Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths endorsing suicide. Instead we find strong condemnation for it.
Searching what Muslims refer to as Gharib Hadiths (weak or strange Hadiths) we do find something about 72 wives but not virgins. The Hadith we find is the following:
Quote:
——————————————————————————–
Sunan al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2562 says:
The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: “The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana’a [Yemen]“
——————————————————————————–
This is as a weak Hadith that has no Sanad — line or sequence of narration. Although listed in an authoritative collection, this particular Hadith has technical weaknesses in its chain of transmitters and is therefore not considered impeccable. As a result, Muslims are not required to believe in it. Even if the Hadith was true, there is nothing about it that says that if someone commits suicide they would get 72 virgins in paradise.
Muslims know that the description of paradise or heaven in Hadiths and Quran is allegorical. If not, then Allah would have allowed us to take our bodies with us when we die. But the vehicle by which we could enjoy the physical things (especially 72 virgins ) mentioned as being in heaven, is left behind here in this world to rot and decay away. So we know for a fact that for heavenly rewards, physical things of this world are used to describe things totally non-physical. A Hadith to keep in mind is as follows:
Quote:
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2007/03/04/debunking-the-suicide-for-72-virgins-myth/
——————————————————————————–
The Prophet said, “Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah’s Cause).” (Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:53)
——————————————————————————–
Heheh, two kinds of people talking, one anti-muslims daw, the other avowed anti-pinoys.
and the anti-pinoys wanting to give away Philippine lands to the Muslim separatists.
anti-pinoys…the newest Filipino Talibans, ahahay, hehehehe.
you cannot give away what never was yours in the first place.
Peaceful religion indeed:
“I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.” Qur’an:8:12
“It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.” Qur’an:8:67
“Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy – a fierce slaughter – murdered, a horrible murdering.” Qur’an:33:60
“Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’” Ishaq:327
“The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.’” Bukhari:V4B52N256
“He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for those who disbelieve, we will fight them forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing them is a small matter to us.” Tabari IX:69
“I cut off Abu Jahl’s head and brought it to the Messenger. ‘O Allah’s Prophet, this is the head of the enemy of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘Praise be to Allah.’” Ishaq:304
Tabari VII:62
“The battle will tell the world about us. Distant men will heed our warning. The infidels may cut off my leg, yet I am a Muslim. I will exchange my life for one with virgins fashioned like the most beautiful statues.” Ishaq:349
“The reason for this expedition was the Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad has damaged our trade, and sits astride our road. If we stay in Mecca we will consume our capital.’ …The news of the caravan reached the Prophet, as did the information that it contained much wealth and silver vessels. Zayd therefore intercepted it and made himself master of their caravan. The fifth (khums) was twenty thousand dirhams; Allah’s Apostle took it and divided the other four fifths among the members of the raiding party. Furat was taken captive. They said to him. ‘If you accept Islam the Messenger will not kill you.’”
Tabari VII:98
“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.” Qur’an:9:123
“When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.” Qur’an:47:4
“Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’ Ishaq:327
“Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.” Qur’an:4:95
“The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.” Tabari VIII:122
Ishaq:515
“Ali burnt some and this news reached Ibn Abbas, who said, ‘Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, “Don’t punish with Allah’s Punishment.” No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, “If a Muslim discards his Islamic religion, kill him.”‘” Bukhari:V4B52N260
“Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” Qur’an 8:12
The Hitch got it all right : RELIGION poisons everything.
oh, a paraphrase of Darwin, Dawkins and Hitchens statement, huh! Read Greater Than You Think by Thomas D. Williams, LC, ThD
Genesis: Cruelty and Violence
1. Because God liked Abel’s animal sacrifice more than Cain’s vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8
2. “I will destroy … both man and beast.”
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and “all flesh wherein there is breath of life.” He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17
3. “Every living substance that I have made will I destroy.”
God repeats his intention to kill “every living substance … from off the face of the earth.” But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
4. “All flesh died that moved upon the earth.”
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears — all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
5. God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram’s lie. 12:17
6. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
7. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. “And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled.” 16:6
8. “I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.”
I guess God couldn’t find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn’t ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn’t give a damn about children. 18:32
9. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two “virgin daughters” instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to “do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes.” This is the same man that is called “just” and “righteous” in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8
10. God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining “fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven.” Well, almost everyone — he spares the “just and righteous” Lot and his family. 19:24
11. Lot’s nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
12. God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe’s lie. 20:3-7
13. Sarai tells Abraham to “cast out this bondwoman and her son.” God commands him to “hearken unto her voice.” So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14
14. God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac’s throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
15. Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
16. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is “defiled” by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
17. “The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them.” 35:5
18. “And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.” What did Er do to elicit God’s wrath? The Bible doesn’t say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7
19. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to “go in unto they brother’s wife.” But “Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and … when he went in unto his brother’s wife … he spilled it on the ground…. And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also.” This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
20. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she “played the harlot” and “is with child by whoredom.” When Judah hears this, he says, “Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.” 38:24
21. Joseph interprets the baker’s dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker’s head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19
22. God brought a seven year, “very greivous” famine on the whole earth for no apparent reason (except maybe to make Joseph wealthy). 41:25-32, 54
This too:
Exodus: Cruelty and Violence
1. Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12
2. “I will … smite Egypt with all my wonders.” 3:20
3. God threatens to kill the Pharaoh’s firstborn son. 4:23
4. God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
5. Moses and Aaron ask the Pharaoh to let all the Israelites go into the desert to pray for three days, or else God will kill them all “with pestilence, or with the sword.” 5:3
6. “Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh.” 6:1
7. God will make sure that Pharaoh does not listen to Moses, so that he can kill Egyptians with his armies. 7:4
8. “And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” Who else could be so cruel and unjust? 7:5, 17
9. God tells Moses and Aaron to smite the river and turn it into blood. 7:17-24
10. The fifth plague: all cattle in Egypt die. 9:2-6
11. The sixth plague: boils and blains upon man and beast. 9:9-12
12. “For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.” Who else but the biblical god could be so cruel? 9:14
13. God gave power to the Pharaoh so that he could show off his own power by killing him. 9:15-16
14. The seventh plague is hail. “And the hail smote throughout the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast.” 9:22-25
15. God wants to be remembered forever for the mass murder of little children. 10:2
16. These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)
17. God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts “a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.” 11:7
18. God explains to Moses that he intends to “smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. 12:12
19. After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh’s heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished “there was not a house where there was not one dead.” Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29
20. To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to “sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix” — all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
21. “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.” 14:4
22. After hardening Pharaoh’s heart a few more times, God drowns Pharaoh’s army in the sea 14:4-28
23. The LORD shall fight for you 14:14
24. “I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour.” 14:17
25. “And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.” 14:18
26. “And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians.” 14:26
27. “And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians.” 14:31
28. Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19
29. “The Lord is a man of war.” Indeed, judging from his acts in the Old Testament, he is a vicious warlike monster. 15:3
30. God’s right hand dashes people in pieces. 15:6
31. “For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them.” 15:19
32. “Horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.” 15:21
33. If you do what God says, he won’t send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise…. 15:26
34. Joshua, with God’s approval, kills the Amalekites “with the edge of the sword.” 17:13
35. “I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.” 17:14
36. “The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.” 17:14-16
37. Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or “shot through.” 19:12-13
38. Like the great and powerful Wizard of Oz, nobody can see God and live. 19:21
39. God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such “burnt offerings,” he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24
40. A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
41. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25
42. If an ox gores someone, “then the ox shall surely be stoned.” 21:28
43. If an ox gores someone due to the negligence of its owner, then “the ox shall be stoned, and his owner shall be put to death.”. 21:29
44. If an ox gores a slave, the owner of the ox must pay the owner of the slave 30 shekels of silver, and “the ox shall be stoned.” 21:32
45. “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
46. “Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.” Is it really necessary to kill such people? Couldn’t we just send them to counseling or something? 22:19
47. “He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.” If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
48. If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24
49. “The firstborn of thy sons thou shalt give unto me.” (As a burnt offering?) 22:29
50. God promises to “send his fear before the Israelites” and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
51. Moses has some animals killed and their dead bodies burned for God. Then he sprinkles their blood on the altar and on the people. This makes God happy. 24:5-8
52. Get some animals, kill them, chop up their bodies, wave body parts in the air, burn the carcasses, and sprinkle the blood all around — in precisely the way God tells you. It may well make you sick, but it makes God feel good. 29:11-37
53. Have your killed and offered your bullock for a sin offering today? How about the two lambs you are supposed to offer each day? 29:36-39
54. Wash up or die. 30:20-21
55. Whoever puts holy oil on a stranger shall be “cut off from his people.” 30:33
56. Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
57. God asks to be left alone so that his “wrath may wax hot” and he can “consume them. 32:10
58. Moses burned the golden calf, ground it into powder, and then forced it down the throats of all the people. 32:20
59. God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were “on the Lord’s side”) to kill “every man his neighbor.” “And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men.” 32:27-28
60. “Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” 32:33
61. But God wasn’t satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35
62. If you can’t redeem him, then just “break his neck.” Hey, it’s all for the glory of God. 34:20
63. Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath “shall be put to death.” 35:2-3
I have another game that we can play. Lets list all the muslim countries, then we can evaluate how Islam plays a role in making them the $h#t hole places that they are today.
We can also list the the most current public decapitation, stoning, and murder in the name of Islam. And then lets list the most current public decapitation, stoning, and murder in the name of Christianity.
Oh ya I forgot, it’s all the jew’s fault. Islam belongs in the stone age
The atheists are getting a field day out of all these expositions of the problems with religious texts. They’re gonna say “I told you so.” :-/ Although I believe the Bible is a bit more pacifist than these. “Jesus said to him (Peter), ‘for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.’” Matt. 26:52.
ATHEISTS do not believe there is a God; atheists do know there are men who pronounce that God made pronouncements about torture and killing of infidels (and the story about resting on the seventh day and letting men go forth and multiply among the dinosaurs).
Seems lavish quotes from robert spencer or geert wilders who also lavishly quote qur’anic verses and prophetic traditions out of contexts just to smear Islam.
Top ten reasons why sharia is bad for all societies :
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html
Meanwhile, it’s Business as usual for Vatican Enterprises, Inc.
‘It is business as usual,” said the Archbishop of Canterbury at the press conference announcing the Vatican’s latest attempt to poach disaffected Anglicans. And how right he was. The Roman Catholic Church is a giant multinational corporation, differing from its business equivalents only in that they pay their taxes.
Like any corporate business, the Vatican’s focus is all on the bottom line: profits rather than prophets; financial rather than spiritual growth. Everything else is just a means to an end. And in order to achieve this end, it deploys all the tactics that have served the corporate world so well: dodgy marketing techniques, products that are not fit for purpose, the refusal (or inability, in the church’s case) to honor guarantees and warranties, advertising based on unproven claims, corrupt trading practices, and obscene rewards for its Chief Executive whilst workers on the shop-floor struggle to make ends meet on poverty wages: these are the daily business of the multinational corporation that is the Roman Catholic Church
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/paula_kirby/2009/10/business_as_usual_for_vatican_enterprises_inc_1.html
Tranquil: The recent developments/pronouncements by the VATICAN should be heeded by Filipinos. There are occasions (and the Philippines should be considered one of those occasions) when married priests are accepted by the VATICAN.
UPn,
It’s time they do. And so one of these days we will be seeing the reverend father celebrating mass, the wife sits on the front row while their kids run around in the middle aisle.
How cute.
Who gives a f@ck about the vatican. It’s a club. If people don’t agree with the club rules, their free to go. (except if you belong to the islam club)Some people are just so f@cking week minded.
“The US is responsible for the Taliban”
So the US is responsible for concocting the belief that says infidels come in the shape of children.
Until the world’s anger – including that of moderate, compassionate Muslims – gets aimed at the true source of the problem, the problem will continue to kill.
Joe